Grigori Archmages

[xienwolf]

If you can select spell effects as promotions you granted yourself the Technology "NEVER" in the worldbuilder.

I have NO clue what your discussion is about the "(33+66+99+132+165)*2 = 990." It almost sounds like you are thinking that I need Great People Points to make Conjurers? I am talking conjurers from a normal Civ, not adventurer ones.

As for how quickly a person can get 30 conjurers, it just depends on what your highest production city is, but typically if I am aiming for a summoning army I have easily 30 Adepts before they are allowed to promote (Marathon speed), and many of them will have the XP needed as soon as I get the Tech.

And yes, 30 vs 3 is an outrageous example, but it is what I would expect the computer to be quite capable of tossing at a person, given their "stack of Doom" mentality, once they understand magic.

 

[it-ogo]

Actually comparing Grigory possibilities with other civs grigory heroes should be countered with religious and national heroes because 30 conjurers grigory are able to build as well for the same price assuming their rush to strength of will. Let us compare 3 adventurer archmages with Govannon+ Hemah. G&H are available at arcane lore = 1 step before strength of will. At he time of research SoW they should be built and gain enough xp. At SoW Grigory have instant 3 archmages with 100 xp. Normally for 100 xp you have 9 levels and 9 promos. So G&H can have twincast (6 promos) and 3 fire. No extensions. If you are lucky though you can get 3 fire mana and 2 more promos for extensions.

Adventurers theoretically have 12 promos: 9 for levels and 3 free for adept-mage-archmage. (Assuming that adaptive Cassiel is not charismatic.) It is enough for Fire III, Twincast, Ext I,II and Mobility.

But in fact you have two free promos for adv-adept, two for adv-mage and two for adv-arc. I think it is a bug.

 

[oyzar]

If you can select spell effects as promotions you granted yourself the Technology "NEVER" in the worldbuilder.

I have NO clue what your discussion is about the "(33+66+99+132+165)*2 = 990." It almost sounds like you are thinking that I need Great People Points to make Conjurers? I am talking conjurers from a normal Civ, not adventurer ones.

As for how quickly a person can get 30 conjurers, it just depends on what your highest production city is, but typically if I am aiming for a summoning army I have easily 30 Adepts before they are allowed to promote (Marathon speed), and many of them will have the XP needed as soon as I get the Tech.

And yes, 30 vs 3 is an outrageous example, but it is what I would expect the computer to be quite capable of tossing at a person, given their "stack of Doom" mentality, once they understand magic.

Actually grigori archmages are noticeable worse on quick because GP generation increase cost is bugged. Instead of costing 67 then 134 etc points it cost 67 then 167 then 267 etc points. It is probably the same bug for epic and marathon meaning you can probably get archmages on marathon insanly fast comparably.


Did you read this?? The point is to get 12 great people(3 adventurers then 3 scientists then reset then 6 more scientists you spend 990 more points than you should have to get them). 33 too much for the second one 66 too much for each of the 3rd ones etc.

You need to take into account that no civ is able to tech anywhere near as fast as grigori with their insane world spell.

 

[xienwolf]

Ok, it refers back to the values for GPP and how much extra you pay then? finally on the same page for that I think.All people pay entry right, not just Grigori?

 

[Tlalynet]

EcoFarm:
Would you like a minimod for your advanced start games? It wouldnt be hard to make and posts.
If I'm reading everyone clearly we're saying that Grigori Mages do screw and advanced start quick game, but work fine on normal games, especially longer games where they appear even later.

What would you like? Metor to have str 6 no colateral, or str 3 with, either way they would still hurt a lot.
Concerning the other thread, how about the 'Give Golden Hammer to Craftsman' spell creates a Great Enginneer instead of a normal one. That way the Luchirp woul'nt be able to spam wonders so badly, but they get a tech increase to compensate them (They would still have a big wonder advantage anyway)
Are there any other game breaking things with advanced start? I think those two things would be easy for me to mod and post if you like.

 

[Tlalynet]

Sorry to double post, but I think this might be interesting.
Meteors have 3Phys+6Fire Damadge, this could be why fire immune is not totally protecting a stack. I never saw that in the game, but in the code it says 3P+6F.
I could limit Metor in other ways too, if that would help you're games be more fun.

 

[xienwolf]

Which code did you find that Meteor has 3 Physical damage? Partially asking to make sure I am reading the code right while trying to compile unit date. They have (in the XML) <iCombat>0</iCombat>, which means 0 Attack strength.

Interesting things I have noticed while poking around in their XML: They are supposed to explode in combat (damage nearby squares when they die), give no War Weariness, and give no XP.

 

[Tlalynet]

So they do, I thought Icombat said 3 for some reason. Damadge_Fire is definitely only 6 though, so where are we getting 9 from? I'm not sure where I got 3phys from and now am very confused.
Thanks for double checking and correcting me.
Perhaps he means 6+50% from Empower V? I havent used Meteor since my second game of FFH, I'll have an arcane game to check that out.

 

[oyzar]

yes 50% empower. you need combat 5 for twincast anyways. If you read the whole thread you will see that you can easily pwn anyone who doesn't rush you easily with grigori archmages. That includes all levels of AI ofc. The game should not be "over" when the player get a tech at turn 120(normal speed)!

 

[Tlalynet]

Strenght of will at turn 120 normal? You must be talking about advanced start, you would have to beline it, totally neglect economy (which would make it take even longer) Hope someone gets trade so you can trade for techs like exploration.
Anyway, I think FFH is a kill or be killed game, even if you go for KoTE before copper, someone else gets copper and has a good chance of slaughtering you with swords.

 

[oyzar]

You don't trade techs. You lightbulb. It is easily possible to get 12 great people(3 adventurers 9 scientists) in this timeframe if you just focus... Obviously you get the economic techs first... Have you never played civ before? :S There is no trading in mp obviously... Exploration only takes about 1 turn at end time research anyways... This means that obviously you get BW before kote but you don't get any more advanced techs either...

 

[popejubal]

You don't trade techs. You lightbulb. It is easily possible to get 12 great people(3 adventurers 9 scientists) in this timeframe if you just focus...

Where are you getting all of these specialits from in FFH? I'm finding that I turn to a cottage economy as a matter of course just because I can't find specialist slots for all of the specialists that I want to run.

I want to run a specialist economy, but I'm finding that I just can't defend myself and also build the libraries, etc that I need to run even just a couple of specialists.

Obviously gets easier once you can run the all-sages-all-the-time civic, but that's a whole lot of turns from the beginning of the game - especially since you don't really have a lot of opportunity for research before then.

 

[Cuteunit]

I'm afraid I dont see how it's possible to have 12 great sages and 3 adventurers popped that quickly, even burning the grig world spell

 

[oyzar]

You get double speed elder councils and libraries. Great library obviously helps. National epic might also help some(although you are already getting +165% from civics civ and palace 2.65*16=42 3.65*17=62). Once the schoolarship civic is unlocked you obviously generate alot of scientists. You probably get 3-4 scientists in other cities than the palace due to the way the world spell works. It is not 12 great sages and 3 adventurers. It is 9 great sages and 3 adventurers. You need 3 cities, any more is obviously a waste... Noble also makes techs cheaper of course and normal speed all the great people are only 33 points more expensive than quick 33*12=396. This can obviously be generated in like 6 end time turns. So if it is doable in 100 turns on quick why not 120 on normal?

 

[Ecofarm]

4 cities you are delayed little, and have considerable post-str-of-will capacity. 5 cities delay is not much and provides opportunity to go for a couple 2300 techs (quick).

I don't think the wonders are so needed? They probably slow you down, dunno.

scientists:
sorc,1
summon, 1
arcane, 2
str, 4
= 8 sages. Why 12?

ps. build adepts asap (perhaps hunters for defense first), then bulb sorcery and slay AI up to emporer at least. Game over at str? huh? If you focus on sorcery and have nice land, your mages can rule the world, unless big map and/or normal+. I recommend amurite, to start with fire and not worry about defending nodes from spamming ai.

 

[Tlalynet]

Wow, nice Oyzer...
There is plenty of trading in multiplayer, trading is WAY more interesting than in SP because people value techs more than just their point value. Setting no trading is setting no trading, nothing to do with muliplayer.

12 great people in 120 turns.. yeah, right... You realize that is one per 10 turns, and that you have no specialits availible at the begining of the game, only the base for being grigori, and even once you get elder councils thats only 1 scientist, and writing is up the tree... Also that lightbulbing grabs the losest scientist tech availible. Also great person generation is random, so you cant choose 3 advanturers and then get only sages unless you kill gp generation in you're capital.
Ecofarms plans make sense, but Oyzer is talking out of his hat.

 

[Ecofarm]

Don't forgt the grigori world spell. If you have a couple hundred GP points towards your, say, 6th great person and you reset it then you will get 1-3 GP in almost consecutive turns.

Scientist bulb order = (assuming you have mysticism)
ether, elementalism, alteration, sorcery, summoning, arcane, str

Sometimes you might only get 2 archs (you can get 3 consistantly with practice). But 1 is enough.