Grumpy Old Men AWP Hub

[Bezhukov]

lurker comment:

"grab steel as a free tech with liberalism, cannons really rock."

This is what really turned the tide in my game, as steel also enables drydocks. As paper is on the (long) road to liberalism, using the specialist to grab it might not be a bad idea.

 

[knupp715]

I've got the save and will play later today after some more discussion.

Great turnset T McC. I will look to resettle the first choke city if we have enough units, which I don't know yet because I haven't checked out the save.

About the Great Person, I think we should grab paper with it. As Bez just stated, grabbing paper to get to liberalism first to grab steel will help us a lot. Drydocks will definitely turn the tide as far as naval supremacy goes. However I'm not sure how pressing this is. If the AI is far behind in tech then I agree to use the GP as a super specialist.

 

[T_McC]

Well .... one thing to keep in mind is that we can research Paper in 4-5 turns at a profit, so the smarter play may be to research Paper and see what the Merchant offers after that. I doubt it will be Education (most likely Printing Press), but I think 4-5 turns research is only worth about 700 gold to us and we can get that back easily by merging the Merchant into Hamburg. Hamburg can also use the extra food to eventually turn a farm into a cottage, thus gaining another 4-5 commerce/turn (on average).

Check with F4, but I think we are still in the tech lead and aren't really being pressured in the race for Liberalism. The AI is thinning out a bit because on the last two rounds we were killing at something like a 3-1 production-adjusted rate. We had raw kill ratios (land units) of ~12-1, and we have ~50% greater production than the average of the AI. The expanded borders of Cologne should also be inducing WW on the AI by this point.

Switching to Theocracy to build City Raider II Maces and City Garrison II or Guerilla II Long/Crossbows to smite the Incans could be wise. I have a sneaking suspicion that we may be able to roll over them, but we should be patient on the attack. Most of their offensive troops died last turn at Cologne.

 

[knupp715]

(0) Revolt to Theocracy.

(1) The Egyptians try to sneak in a stack next to Vilacambra.



I merge the Great Merchant into Hamburg. It looks like he will be more beneficial to us as a super specialist. I kill a warchariot and cat outside of Cologne.

(2) Dortmund builds a galley and starts on another. Hamburg builds a Crossbowman and starts training an explorer. Essen finishes a war elephant and starts an explorer.
Kill 2 Keshiks.

IBT: Kill an Egyptian galley.

(3) Berlin finishes a war elephant and starts on a crossbowman. Kill an Egyptian galley, along with the egyptian stack that landed near Vilicambra with no losses. Kill a roman Horsearcher, praet, sword, and cat with no losses.

IBT: Kill an Egyptian Horse archer and two keshiks outside Vilicambra.

(4) Kill a Roman horsearcher, praet, spear, and cat outside Cologne.

IBT: Kill a Keshik outside of Vilicambra.

(5) Hamburg builds an explorer and starts on a courthouse. Essen finishes it's explorer and starts on a harbor for some Vilicambra finishes walls and starts on a castle. Berlin finishes a crossbowman and starts on a Confucian Missionary.

Killed a French Sword and 2 Horse Archers.

Seems explorers need to be upgraded to Combat I before Medic so the two explorers I built are only Medic 1.

IBT: Kill 3 Horse archers outside of Cologne.

(6) Berlin builds the Confucian missionary and starts on a caravel. Munich starts building National Epic.

IBT: Our galley loses to an Incan galley.

(7) The secrets of guilds is discovered and paper will be researched in 4 turns. Ghandi already has philosophy and is our only AI tech contender. We should at least try to beat him in the race for liberalism.

Berlin builds a caravel and starts a mace. Frankfurt finishes a theatre and starts building a galley. Sink an Indian galley that had a sword and chariot on board.

IBT: Kill a horse archer and war chariot.

(8) Essen builds a harbor and starts on a cat. Kill an axe, horsearcher, & sword with no losses.

IBT: Kill a horsearcher, war chariot, and 2 swords.

(9) Berlin builds a maceman and starts on a cat. Bremen builds a courthouse and starts building a barracks. Kill a Longbowman, praet, spearmen, chariot, and two catapults, no losses.

(10) Berlin builds a cat and starts on a phant. Stuttgart builds a market and starts on a grocer. Kill a roman galley.

Overview:




A very large stack is heading towards Cologne. Be careful...



I didn't found the choke city because I was waiting for the super stack shown above to go by, and also because we may want more units.



Research on paper is due in 1 turn. I suggest a straight drive towards liberalism.

 

[ThERat]

I can play today, if I can find the save...

I would rather get steel with liberalism, so we need to have chemistry first

 

[T_McC]

Since we have a Castle in Cologne, we should take the uber-X-bow to found the new city. Garrison III/Drill IV should be fine without even Walls, while any old thing can do well with a +100% cultural defense.

Of course, looking at the pictures we seem to have been bombed back down to ~50% in Cologne. When a Cat shows up, that's the signal to attack out of the city. Hopefully the non-Mongol units will attack the city straight-away and our Pikes can peel off the top layer of Keshiks.

 

[knupp715]

Since we have a Castle in Cologne, we should take the uber-X-bow to found the new city. Garrison III/Drill IV should be fine without even Walls, while any old thing can do well with a +100% cultural defense.

Of course, looking at the pictures we seem to have been bombed back down to ~50% in Cologne. When a Cat shows up, that's the signal to attack out of the city. Hopefully the non-Mongol units will attack the city straight-away and our Pikes can peel off the top layer of Keshiks.

Whenever a catapult showed up I attacked out of the city except for turn 7/8 when a big (a little bit smaller than the one headed towards Cologne now) multi-nation stack was near. I wasn't able to get rid of the entire thing for 2 turns, due to bad combat chances because of the variety in the stack. That's how the defenses went down.

Seems I forgot the save, I always forget something
Sorry, here it is:

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
we have 376 turns left, plan to even that out to 365
the steel slingshot requires gunpowder, chemistry, paper, education and then liberalism
check India, it does not have guilds and engineering, doubtful to be a competitor for liberalism
load super xbow onto boat so we can settle the choke

it's also time to build the required number of theatres for Cologne's Globe Theatre

cycle through cities, get Munich an additional scientist to slow growth, since it's at happy limit
Cologne is building a temple when we get it super happy anyway, swap to theatre
Dormund can work crabs instead of a normal coast tile, it has been suboptimal since the last save

IT 3 keshiks die at Cologne to xbows
we get paper and go for gunpowder in 10

1. 1275AD
unload settler stack at the choke
do not attack from Cologne as odds as lower than 80%

since the pressure will soon be off Vilcabamba, can send units to Inca land

spot that Cori.. is only defended by 2 units

whip theatre in Cologne

IT we defeat 4 units at Cologne
Munich get's its National Epic

2. 1280AD
defeat axe next to Cori and climb hill before attack
defeat 5 keshiks and a cat outside Cologne

found Duisburg at the 2nd choke
income drops to -23gpt

IT defeat a HA at Duisburg

3. 1285AD
defeat 2 chariots, 1 sword, 2 spears and 1 cat at Cologne
used those 4/5 LB's to attack to get them promoted

lose a mace at Cori, but defeat 2 units

decide to raze city as to not kill our economy, also this town is difficult to hold at the moment so close to Egypt

take out a French galley carrying a settler pair

4. 1290AD
there are lots of galleys floating around south of our choke

pull back small stack to Vilcabamba since there are some loaded Incan galleys approaching

WW already kicks in

IT our small naval stack takes out 2 galleys, no other attacks

5. 1295AD
take out 1 phant, 2 HA and a cat at Cologne
take out an Egyptian galley, but Inca's 3 galleys will land unit next to Duisburg next turn

IT our wounded naval mini stack fends off 2 more galleys
Inca drop their units

6. 1300AD
attack the 4 units, lose a mace against all odds (95%)
but take units out with ease

IT defeat 4 units on defense at Cologne

7. 1305AD
defeat a French galley in the north
attack small stack outside Cologne and lose another mace at 90+%, both those
losses were maces promoted for city attack, I think we better don't promote that way
kill those 4 units anyway

defeat a 3 unit stack outside Duisburg and decide to occupy that forest tile which I had forgotten to do

a big Roman stack is approaching

Cologne set to Globe Theatre, however at the moment it would require 13 pop and we can only whip 5

IT Roman stack seems to go for Cologne

8. 1310AD
take out Indian galley south of choke

DANGER!!!
spot danger in the north as a French 3 galley convoy is sailing around, we have not enough caravels to defend
whip LB in Bremen to prevent the worst, send a knight up there that might reach on time
reduce science to 30% so we can upgrade that archer in Bremen
attack with wounded caravel and take out 1/3 galleys, at least 4 offensive units left only

cost in Cologne drops to 9 versus 5

IT mace on Duisburg forest defeats a HA

9. 1315AD
4 French unit have landed on that hill next top Bremen
knight takes out 1 of the 4 units
upgrade archer to xbow in Bremen

defeat a chariot at Villa

there are 2 big stacks next to Cologne and near Duisburg, first time we spot xbows from the enemy
send Villa's units to help at Duisburg

IT units on all fronts, who claimed this will be a pushover
defeat 1 HA at Bremen, the other HA pillages mine

at Duisburg lose forest mace to cat after defeating HA
at Cologne defeat 3 units, but 3 cats bomb our defenses down

10. 1320AD
Duisburg: defeat 4 units including a cat, but lose an elephant
Bremen: odds too bad, do not attack those 2 leftover units
Cologne: can't attack since odds too low and there are 4 cats in the stack, our defenses will be gone for now

IT defeat 11 units at Cologne for no losses
defeat 1 galley but lose 1 caravel on the southern choke to Inca
we get gunpowder

11. 1325AD
attack HA near Bremen and lose knight at 90% odds, this has been crazy during my turns
take HA out with xbow and cat with knight, no more units there for now
take out that French galley and send 1 caravel to reinforce choke

take out 2 units next to Duisburg, send over a knight so we can attack last unit of a stack
take out 7 units at Cologne again using those lesser exp units, no more units there for now

we have a Great Scientist at Munich, that can either contribute towards education or build an academy in Munich
which I recommend

Ghandi still doesn't have paper, set research to chemistry in 15, then we should go for
liberalism via education

Cologne is now at 8/5 for whipping the Globe Theatre, it will grow in 2, guess we can whip it during the next turnset

the situation:

the southern choke, only minor stacks (2-3 units) at the moment

the situation near Bremen is more stable, however we need more caravels and more defenders in case we get attacked

this choke also needs more caravels

 

[ThERat]

Roster
ThERat
Greebley - up
T_McC
knupp715


My suggestions: chemistry will give us grenadiers, which will prove very powerful. Once Cologne whips its Globe Theatre, it can the whip some infra and then units.

With education/liberalism we can get steel for free. I assume this will turn the tide as we get cannons and ironclads with it.

We need then to decide which city will build ironworks.

edit: by the way, kill ratio was 85-8 losing at least 4 units with odds >90%

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it.

 

[Tatran]

With education/liberalism we can get steel for free. I assume this will turn the tide as we get cannons and ironclads with it.

I don't wannna spoil anything,but those clads need coal too.

 

[Bezhukov]

lurker comment:

The main benefit of steel is drydocks (combination barracks/heroic epic for boats in every city). Cannons also add another dimension, as they are much more likely to survive than cats. It can be useful to keep a few sui cats on hand at the choke cities to handle the mega-stacks so they can't bomb down defenses.

 

[T_McC]

Actually, Cannons may be our best offensive unit when we can build them. Attack 12 (same as Grenadiers), same promotion path for attacking in the field, ability to retreat and collateral damage. We should have 2-3 of these in each choke city, but I should hope they won't be suiciding. They'll have ~50% advantage over anything they could face.

 

[T_McC]

Is it possible to get the circumnavigation bonus on a map without X-wrapping? The Caravel named Magellan was supposed to be trying to do that, but we still may be able to.

 

[Bezhukov]

lurker comment: If you stack 6 or so cannons, once the first wins, the chances for each subsequent cannon to follow also goes up, until things get silly and your weaker units are given free promotions too.

 

[angeleyes]

Is it possible to get the circumnavigation bonus on a map without X-wrapping? The Caravel named Magellan was supposed to be trying to do that, but we still may be able to.

Lurkers comment
don't think so, i just did it myself on a hub-map and got nothing, and it would not
be logical too.

 

[Greebley]

Turn 295 (1325 AD)

Set up Science - Chem, Philosophy, Edu, Liberalism, Steel

Also set up a Theatre in Bremen after the Caravel. A single expansion can get us across the water to take out Basancon and stop France from getting across.

Going to build some more Cottages too. I believe we have the tech lead and will be stronger still if we increase it. It will also give us the ability to support Incan cities (keep them) which will give more shields in the long run (we lose some now by working more cottages). Makes sure all cottages/hamlets/etc. are being worked.

Turn 296 (1330 AD)
Defeat Cat, Galley. Lose Pike (2-1)

Turn 297 (1335 AD) (9-2)
Defeat, Mace, 3 Cat, 3 Horse. Lose a War Elephant

Note that I am attacking out of the city when odds look good. This kills the Catapults to keep our city defense up.

Turn 298 (1340 AD) (11-2)
Defeat Horse, Cat.

Turn 299 (1345 AD) (13-2)
Defeat Xbow, Cat

Turn 300 (1350 AD) (16-2)
Defeat Praetorian, Horce, Cat

I am linking up an attack on the Incans. We will see how it goes.

Some excellent news. Not a suprise though (so more a confirmation:

Turn 301 (1355 AD) (20-2)
Defeat 2 Elephant, Cat, Galley

Turn 302 (1360 AD) (21-2)
Defeat Archer
Razed Abydos
This is an Egyptian town that was settled in Incan Territory.
Decide to push into the interior rather than going North for the smaller towns.

Turn 303 (1365 AD) (26-2)
Defeat Elephant, 2 Cat, Horse, Xbow

Turn 304 (1370 AD) (27-2)
Defeat XBow.
[Note: I make a mistake here - I move the attack stack next to the capitol and find out the Incans are stonger than I was giving them credit for.]

Turn 305 (1375 AD) (33-4)
Defeat 4 Cats, Archer, Longow. Lose 2 Mace
The cats tore our stack to shreds. Retreating.

I am going to play 15. This is a lousy place to turn over the game. One stack is being ripped to shreds, and the French assault is rather complex and I would like to see it through to completion. This will also round off the number of turns.

Turn 306 (1380 AD) (47-10)
Defeat XBow, Elephant, Longbow, 5 Keshik, 2 Cat, Mace, 2 Horse, Elephant. Lose 3 Mace, Elephant, 2 Cats.

So much for our attack. Moving next to the Capitol was a dumb move. Oh well.

Our french attack has landed. I rushed the Theatre and had an Artist specialist to speed the border expansion. Once the border expanded, I was able to get my Galleys across. I landed 2 Knight, Pike, XBow for a Spear and Archer.

Turn 307 (1385 AD) ( 60-11)
Defeat 2 Elephant, 4 Horse, Spear, Archer, Mace, 3 Cat, Galley. Lose a Caravel (vs a Galley).

Razed Besancon
France can no longer cross to our lands - the city is gone.

Turn 308 (1390 AD) (62-11)
Defeat XBow, Horse.
Our units in French territory retreat back into the boats. No reason to get attacked.

Turn 309 (1395 AD) (65-11)
Defeat 2 Praetorian, Cat.
Clean up last troops near city.

Turn 310 (1400 AD)

Notes:
The forest near Duisburg (Incan choke city) is often attacked. I am unsure why some units attack there, but I am not complaining. The forest has better defense than the town.

No Incan troops. We have hurt them. They only come out when some idiot moves next to the capitol I was building up more units in Duisburg for an assault on them.

In 1 turn we get Chemistry. I suggest building some Grenadiers before the Incan assualt. I moved 2 Galleys toward the "Incan Shortcut" so they don't have to walk all the way to the Choke city. Timing it to move next to the Incan town with units from Duisburg and dropping off recently built Grenadiers seems to make sense to me.

The Incan Shortcut was challenged by the Incans and is in a state of disrepair. They destroyed one boat and the other is injured and fleeing. We are building a Caravel nearby and have another that has moved close. Hopefully we can stem the tide. Just in case there are Macemen that are place to cover two towns.

I think we have plenty of units on defense. We can build more Infra if we choose. Some towns don't have Grocers. I think building Grenadiers to take out Incan lands seems best though. I think we can keep towns now. Our economy will continue to grow too.

Started Hanging Gardens because we could and it didn't seem to take too long.

Current French situation. I moved away all but two Caravels since France cannot get across:

The choke cities:

 

[ThERat]

good work with the French city, this will give us flexibility. I think sooner or later the AI will have optics and then swarm us again with caravels until we get ironclads.
To get them, we need to get coal

I think with grenadiers we should be able to fight Incas and leave the capital as a final target. I wonder about Cologne, I am sure we could whip the Globe Theater already and then maybe we can start to whip grenadiers for 2 citizens with every 2nd growth.

I was wondering, whether it would be possible to block the choke west of that wheat. Could we build up a defensive force and build forts there, maybe the AI would not attack them? This would enable us to fully develop the choke area (we do not have wheat) and take off a lot of pressure.

 

[T_McC]

I got this. May be able to play tonight.

I figure we can go one of two ways with Cologne: Either use the food to whip troops, or use the food to generate GPs. I'll have to check the number of specialists we can run to see if we have any hope of getting a GP soon or whether Munich generates points too quickly to make it practical.

Building a fort on the ice sounds nice, but actually getting the units/workers in place may be a real challenge with all the traffic. Once we have Cannons, a fort/gate could be used to shred the incoming troops.

 

[knupp715]

Look at the last screenshot in Greebley's report. If we could get forts on the two tiles (one with French chariot and one with Indian mace) it would be a great way to close off units from the west. We could then get 2 caravels on the shore tile next to the forts and we wouldn't have any threat of naval invasion except for the Incas. This plan would only last until the AI get's galleons though, but I think it would be worth it to get our Choke cities developed.