Grumpy Old Men AWP Hub

[T_McC]

A few thoughts:

If we want to build the Colossus, let's build it in Munich. It disperses the GPP, but Berlin is a much better place to build troops and Munich is very far from the enemy. So much less of a potential to have to interrupt the build for more pressing matters. The other city in the N could be a fairly good settler/worker source with an improved cow and fishing boat.

Not at all worried about the IT. We have 3 Spears behind walls. If Hattie attacks with all 5 units (including the one promoted vs. Gunpowder units ) all that is going to happen is a lot of promotions. I would, however, promote the 5 XP Axeman in the city to Woodsman II and move him into the forest. No use letting the Egyptians take the easy way around the choke.

Don't be afraid to whip our seafood cities. The choke is an alarmingly good GP city if we can get the right buildings there. I was going to question the Library but that fits in nicely as we could easily afford to run specialists there.

 

[ThERat]

save

Pre-Turn
galley will reach Berlin fishing nets in 4 turns, thus we need a galley badly there
MM Berlin and we can get another galley in 3
send galley from Frankfurt south to help at Cologne, we don't need it there for the time being

IT we kill one chariot with a spear, the rest runs off

1. 570AD
promote spear to medic since we have currently not a single medic there
Incan galley moved north as expected, our galleys follow and spot this

whip another workboat in Cologne

IT the sea blockage works, better even, the northern galley attacks and sinks
the other galley turns around I guess turning towards Cologne

2. 580AD
MM Berlin back to cottages and faster growth, we could really use more workers, but we do not have them

IT we get attacked by 4 chariots, defeat against 3 but lose an axe against the last of them

3. 590AD
take out that wounded chariot with horse archer
Cologne connects clams for faster growth
chnage production there for a lighthouse which is better for growth in the long run

4. 600AD
the next Incan galley shows up at the choke in the east
confucianism spreads to Frankfurt by itself
need to cover the wounded galley there, but since Berlin has produced a galley, we should be fine even if the galley moves north

5. 610AD
Inca galley disappeared, check and it's still ther unable to cross I assume
Frankfurt got a lighthouse and goes for another galley to be safe

6. 620AD
gallley disappeared again, but not to our side of the straits
spot more units from other nations from the south

7. 630AD
Mogols have 2 units next to Cologne now, we get a library in Berlin, that also grows to 9
Dortmund follows our faith by itself as well
whip lighthouse in Cologne since it works 2 minor tiles already

IT defeat Mongol chariot on defense, get metal casting, next machinery in 17 turns

8. 640AD
swap Berlin from monstery to forge
beat remaning warrior with horse archer

9. 650AD
borders of Dortmund expand, 3 French units next to Cologne
we have now 2 galleys at the eastern crossing and 3 at Cologne covering the nets
use axe to defeat archer, 2 spears left

bigger stack in the back with a sword on top

IT one spear commits suicide and the other runs off to join the 2nd stack of 4 units
think we need more axes there

10. 660AD
prepare for the next few stacks from Rome, but continue to build infra first
start to hook up wine
play out to a final even number so we can continue with 10 turns each

11. 670AD
Hamburg gets library, forge next, Munich finishes a temple for added happiness and goes for forge
Essen finshes rax and goes for axe

12. 680AD
Stuttgart: granary -> work boat since borders expanded
stack of 5 units next to Cologne, move in 2nd axe to defend

IT 2 units attack and we lose an axe to an axe

13. 690AD
the stack has increased now to 6 units
we better get more troops up soon as I spot an Inca stack as well
wine is online for added happiness

IT this round is far better as we beat 5 units without losses, remaining spear runs off

14. 700AD
Cologne finishes library, axe next
Berlin finishes forge
change to axe (horse archers aren't that useful since the enemy brings spears)

we could alternatively build Colossus in 8 in Berlin
Cologne runs now 2 scientists, still grows fast due to food gallore

Frankfurt will finish galley next turn and maybe should go another settler to fill our land, we still have space for 2 more
cities
we will get machinery in 8, but run at 70% science at -14gpt, this will hopefully improve

next stack approaching, we will get 3 more axes soonish

our units inside Cologne

eastern blockage

 

[ThERat]

Roster
ThERat
grs - away until 15th
Greebley - can you swap with grs?
T_McC
knupp715

once we have machinery we should build xbows for defense at the choke and maces to go after Incas.

I vote to build Colossus in our capital as it will be done in a mere 8 turns

 

[T_McC]

I still advocate waiting a bit and building the Colossus in Munich. Once the Forge is finished in 4 turns it should be able to build the Colossus in 10 (it has ~ the same base hammers as Berlin). I'd rather put the 50% hammer bonus in Berlin towards troops, especially since Berlin is at least 3 turns closer to the front than Munich.

I would build an Archer in Cologne rather than an Axe. I think we can whip one on the next turn, and then maybe even another the turn after due to overflow. The axes being built elsewhere won't reach the city in time for the Incan stack.

We could also move the Archer in the forest back into the city (where he has an additional 50% bonus just for being an Archer). He's got a promotion coming and would be strong vs. Axes. Apparently we still haven't bothered to try to promote a Melee unit to Woodsman II to man the forest. If we aren't going to do that we might as well cut the forest down. This hasn't hurt us because the AI is so stupid, and won't attack the forest to try to get around the choke city.

I would use Stuttgart rather than Frankfurt to build any additional settlers. Stuttgart is far from the front and has essentially the same tiles to work as Frankfurt. I'd rather have the city closer to the front building troops and infrastructure. Frankfurt will also have cottages to grow into sooner than Stuttgart. I don't think we have to be in a great hurry to settle anyway, I would probably build 2-3 more workers first. I see us having 4 more city sites: The two remaining from the dotmaps, and two more on our E coast. The two E coast sites will be fishing villages, but with the Great Lighthouse and Colossus those should be terrific economic cities.

The blockade in the SE isn't. The two galleys have to more 1 tile E to actually form a blockade. At present they form more of a funnel towards Berlin.

The red dots are the coastal tiles. Also on the picture, we can save a bunch of money delaying Machinery by 1 turn.

We can make 70 gpt at 0% science, and the Archer --> Crossbow upgrade would cost 141 gold(?). Would probably be worth turning research off for 4-5 turns to do a couple of these along the front. Units with first-strike are the Armies of C4AW. Sufficiently promoted a X-bow can kill 15 Maces in a single IT because of the (buggy?) way that unit strength is calculated. A X-bow in the choke city gets the city cultural defense bonus applied even to first strikes, so once a X-bow gets up to Garrison I/Drill III, it has a good chance of killing a Sword/Axe just from first strikes. They are even better than Armies for defense because the AI isn't afraid to attack them with single units.

 

[T_McC]

There's one other good argument for using Stuttgart for Settlers: It's the only one of our cities that doesn't have the Org Religion bonus for buildings.

 

[ThERat]

archers are pretty useless defenders against those axes and swords, however I agree that with drill 3/4 the units become close to unbeatable. As I stated before an xbow with drill4 can take out entire stacks without taking any harm. If we have a few os those, that should keep us going for good defense.

By the way, I am aware that the block isn't a block in the east, however, I kept it that way to save some gold since 1 galley is inside our borders. I thought we can spot any enemy galley early enough to shift ours into the path. If you feel that isn't safe, maybe then we should shift the units.

I agree with your plan, let's build the Colossus in Munich and dedicate Berlin to units for the time being. We can later churn out some maces there and ship them over and take out Inca

 

[T_McC]

archers are pretty useless defenders against those axes and swords ...

Well ... Spears are less than useless against Axes. A freshly-produced Archer can immediately be promoted to Garrison I and have an effective strength of 6.6 in the choke city, with a first strike, assuming no fortification bonus. A Spear can hope to have a defense of 5 against an Axe if it has been fortified for a while. The point is we need more non-Spear, non-HA bodies in the choke. If an Axe can be whipped after 1 turn of production, then whip an Axe. But I know an Archer can be whipped in time. The Axes being built won't reach the choke in time for the visible stack. (Maybe another reason for Engineering.)

It may also be useful to see if we can shuffle any existing units around to reach the choke city. Volume counts so we can keep our Spears away from defending against non-Horse units, and our HA on the offense only.

Agree on the "blockade". Having shadowed some of the turns you played, I have no idea what the Incan galleys were trying to do, so giving them an opening to Berlin and then closing it may be just what we want, to keep them running in circles.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

hey all thanks for the screenies

 

[Greebley]

I don't think Archers are useless defenders if they get 2 promotions. They get a very decent city bonus. Something like 45% + 25% for fortification. Add walls and and a town defense bonus and they will win vs a sword more often than not.

I feel this is the one real use for them. They don't ever move unlike other units so keep the fortification.

One or two in frontline walled cities makes sense to me. They are cheap and have the added bonus that one is not tempted to send them with an attacking party, so you free your axes and swords for better things and still have some defense.

 

[ThERat]

Greebley, I know you are up in several games, maybe we simply wait for grs to take it, since he should be back today

 

[Greebley]

Ya they all seem to come up at once. Yesterday, I didn't play any because I was tired enough to do something really stupid.

Tonight I played a shorter game, so go ahead Grs and play. I will go after you.

 

[grs]

Got it. I will play tonight.

 

[grs]

Correction, I will play Friday night.

 

[grs]

710AD: --

720AD: Kill 3 axes, lose 1 horse.

730AD: Draft Axe in Cologne, kill 1 archer, 1 axe.

740AD: Munich start The Colossus (due in 9).

750AD: There is a huge stack (14 units) 2 tiles away. Kill 3 war chariots, 2 axes, 1 sword.

760AD: Lose 1 spear, kill 1 chariot. There are now 29 units near Cologne.

770AD: Machinery - feudalism. Lose 1 axe, kill 1 archer, 2 spears, 5 axes, 2 war chariots, 2 swords.

24-3, but tides are turning

780AD: Kill 2 swords and 3 war chariots, lose 2 axes.

790AD: Confucianism spreads to Stuttgart. Kill 3 war chariots, 1 sword, 1 axe, 1 spear, lose 1 archer, 2 horses, 1 spear.

800AD: Hurry a mace in Cologne, probably too late. Machinery came a few turns too late to save us from the swords that ripped up our defense.

You are dead. Do you want to quit or restart (q/r)?

 

[knupp715]

Looks like they were a tough set of turns. I don't want to give up yet though. A lot of enemy units are wounded plus we have 50% defenses in the city, a very highly promoted axe, and (did you know this?) when you rush a unit it will gaurd the city during the IBT, so there is still a chance that we can keep that city.

 

[T_McC]

This isn't meant as a criticism of GRS, but I figured this would be a good place to play a shadow round and see what could be learned ...

The situation in alternate 780 AD

At this point the kill ratio was something to zero. (I guess I should have highlighted the enemy stack ...) On the following IT we killed 14 enemy with 1 War Chariot retreating.

By the alternate 800 AD the coast was relatively clear

We had lost two Archers in the interim, but the next couple of turns should be quiet. And by the time another serious stack can approach Cologne we would have 1-2 built Crossbows and another cash-upgraded Crossbow, which should have been enough to neuter most reasonably sized melee stacks. Plus we still had 11 non-Archer units in Cologne.

I don't think I did anything too particularly different from what GRS did (I only changed one of the initial builds), I only moved units into Cologne and waited (and chose promotions, but nothing tricky there).

So what I took from this exercise is that (a) the pRNG matters, and (b) even with individually superior units, you really have to defend by volume. What I think I did do differently is to emphasize building as many Archers as I could, quickly. There was one Archer that could be moved into Cologne from the forest (which I am sure GRS did), and one that could be shuffled down the coast in time for the first attacks. I had Cologne building Archers and whipped one on the first turn, then built one out naturally. Berlin also built a 1-turn Archer after it completed the Axe it had started in 700 AD.

It seems by having a larger number of slightly weaker troops I was able to avoid a vicious circle: The best defensive units defend multiple times in a round, and even if they are successful they can't heal enough to survive the following round. Which exposes the weaker defenders to possibly have to defend more than once per round, and then they can't heal, and soon enough you're out of units.

With all of those Archers, the Axes and strongest Archers may have been able to fight one less battle in a round, and thus be healthier and more likely to fully heal before the next round. There may even have been enough units that the top defenders were able to "take a round off" if they were sufficiently injured. Which meant they were more likely to be successful defending when they were called upon to do so, and the weaker defenders only had to fight the weaker offensive units (suicide Spears ), which meant we retained the volume to not require the top defensive units to defend while injured. (The multi-unit animation makes the battles look closer than they are. I doubt our units got below 1/2-strength, but they still lost two animated figures.) So we turned the circle around and could buy enough time to put really superior units in the field (even though I got Machinery a turn or two after GRS).

The only "drawback" to this strategy (and proof of how it is working) is that most units are only defending once, at good odds, so the experience gets spread amongst all the defenders and promotions aren't that easy to come by. But the AI units aren't promoting either because they're dead. I can also say I never had a Spear defend vs. anything but a mounted unit, and only had a Horse Archer defend once in the entire round. So I think this effect is very real.

It also appears the "offensive defense" is going to be impossible in C4AW. Even if a particular AI doesn't bring combined arms, between them they do. I could never attack the enemy stacks with a Horse Archer without having a promoted Spear defend, and an Axe would always face a promoted Axe. The AI being able to share a tile is a not-that-subtle difference from C3C, where the AIs would have been tripping all over themselves to get to the choke and we would only have to defend against a maximum of two nations/turn.

 

[ThERat]

we have not lost this yet, the mace will be done in the IT and we might survive. As I mentioned before we need xbows, maybe 3-4 they can kill a lot of units once they get promoted to drill3/4
Alos, make sure the choke east is always covered by galleys once they show up

Roster
ThERat
grs - just played
Greebley - up
T_McC
knupp715

 

[ThERat]

The only "drawback" to this strategy (and proof of how it is working) is that most units are only defending once, at good odds, so the experience gets spread amongst all the defenders and promotions aren't that easy to come by.

What you can do to get our 'offensive' units up to experience is to make them attack weaker units or if there are smaller stacks.

Soon, the AI will turn up with cats and we need to take them out, else we lose our city defense bonus. So, we need a few horses as well to be able to attack and retreat.

I wouldn't have chosen feudalism, but construction and then engineering. It will give us pikes, important 3-tile moves and castles, a killer improvement for the choke.

 

[T_McC]

What you can do to get our 'offensive' units up to experience is to make them attack weaker units or if there are smaller stacks.

Heh. Generally, the stacks that round were 8-12 deep between three civs with essentially perfect combined arms. We could never get a battle at good odds on offense, unless the unit we'd be attacking was injured from winning an attack on the city (and that's not exactly a good thing). The other problem is that if we were to attack out of Cologne, we'd not only lose health from the battle but also we wouldn't get the healing for being in the city. So hopefully the AI will get a little more spread out now and we can attack some of the stacks. The other option is to build Cats ourselves.

 

[Greebley]

Ok, I got it. I will see what I can do.