GS Question

[Jeddius]

My first question relates to starting an observatory with my GS I received from Writing (playing as Babylon). I chose an observatory and thought my science in the upper left and my city would change from plus 5 to plus 10...but it's not changing. Am I getting the addt'l science?

Secondly, I'm wondering which of these moves is better for a cultural game. Provided I get the plus 5 science do I create the observatory on turn 10, or do I save the GS until right after I bulb Civil Service with my GL and bulb Theology with the GS? I can't figure out which will provide me the best value.

Thanks for the help!

 

[eris]

I can answer the first part, probably. You need to have a city citizen working the observatory tile to get the science from the observatory. You may have to manually assign the citizen to that tile if the city governor is not doing so for you.

 

[Manlius]

I guess you didn't work the tile with your Academey on it.

 

[Supr49er]

Do you mean you created an Academy on one of your tiles with your GS?
If yes, make sure that it is being worked by one of your citizens.

 

[Jeddius]

Do you mean you created an Academy on one of your tiles with your GS?
If yes, make sure that it is being worked by one of your citizens.

Thanks for the quick response, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I figured the game would automatically do that.

 

[dubrown]

About your second question. If I understand you correctly you wonder about the best way to use the GS you earn. There's mathematical answers which will give the most correct answer and I would guess there's a thread about it somewhere.

Generally for any game using the GS for bulbs is more effective than an academy. Though an early GS used on a well placed academy will likely through the whole game contribute more beakers than bulbing an early tech. With Babylon that tends to get more GS than others it might be reasonable to use the early GS for a well placed academy but in other cases I would recommed using it for bulbing (either directly if there's viable options or saving it for the right time.) Mid game and forward bulbing will most likely always contribute more beakers than an academy.

 

[Jeddius]

Dub,

Thanks for the information. My thoughts were to use the GS for an observatory around T10 early in the game and you would get more long term benefit...I'm not a math person by any means though so I don't delve into the mathematics of it. Actually in my game the AI ended up beating me to the Great Library very early, so I used the GS to bulb Civil Service instead, saving me 30 plus turns of research.

When you talk about having a well placed academy what goes into that? Where is the optimal spot for academies? Does having a mine next to it increase the science output? I'm sure this is posted in the forums somewhere but I don't have the time to comb through it all, so any help would be greatly appreciated as always.

Thanks,

Jed

 

[YYY]

The optimal spot for Academies is within the workable area of the city you've built (or plan to build) your National College in, hands down. The College will give +50% on the research generated by the Academy, and this will stack with any other research buildings you produce later (University, Public School, etc).

If you, for whatever reason, don't intend to build your College for a long while, then ideally you should build the Academy near a high-pop city with one or two generally worthless tiles (Tundra or Desert) so you can seize the opportunity to turn a worthless tile into a productive one. High-pop cities also get more out of their Libraries than other cities, which gives more raw research for the College to give bonuses to. If you don't have a very high pop city to exploit (or no useless tile), then you should place it on plain grassland, so the Academy can be worked without affecting growth.

 

[davelisowski]

I would bulb a tech.

I've had trouble getting GS since universities are the first building with a GS slot. By the time I generate one, my research is under 10 turns per tech...

That might be an exaggeration... but it's late game

 

[bryanw1995]

most of the time now I go for GE's instead of GS's. anyway I've found that RA's are easy to manage and are obviously much more available anyway. only times I go for GS's typically now are if I'm playing babylon or siam, or if I snag a couple early science wonders.

 

[Civsassin]

As Babylon, I used a strategy of researching straight to Bronze Working and then to Writing. You can use the GS to slingshot to Iron Working. That's one possible Babylon strategy. On the other hand, an Academy that early in the game will be worth quite a few hammers down the road with all of the multipliers factored in for science buildings.

Based on your strategy, either option would provide benefits.

 

[juckie]

I'm sure this is posted in the forums somewhere but I don't have the time to comb through it all, so any help would be greatly appreciated as always.

I don't want to sound like an ass, but...
I pressed "search this forum", typed in "babylon academy" and the fourth (excluding this thread) was the hit you wanted. In which there was a discussion, some good arguments and even a bit of math. I dare to say posting this, waiting for responses, and responding in itself did cost you more time then a simple and smart search.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=405168

If you, for whatever reason, don't intend to build your College for a long while, then ideally you should build the Academy near a high-pop city with one or two generally worthless tiles (Tundra or Desert) so you can seize the opportunity to turn a worthless tile into a productive one.

Don't follow this advice, ever!
Worthless tiles should never be usedfor this! Either halt population growth, or use a specialist instead. Using a desert tile to make an academy is just bad, and doesn't make sense. Instead, especially early, use it on an already high yield tile. This makes a huge yield output for only 1 citizen/happiness. And happiness is the bottleneck resource in the game (kinda ).

 

[vexing]

Worthless tiles should never be usedfor this!

^ truth

the best tiles to place an academy or monument on are tiles worked by your capital that have sheep or deer or cattle.
building a pasture or camp on those only gains +1 (vs other tiles having a farm or trading post or lumbermill for +2)

 

[YYY]

Worthless tiles should never be usedfor this! Either halt population growth, or use a specialist instead. Using a desert tile to make an academy is just bad, and doesn't make sense. Instead, especially early, use it on an already high yield tile. This makes a huge yield output for only 1 citizen/happiness. And happiness is the bottleneck resource in the game (kinda ).

This is a good principle, but it does not really turn into good practice. In the general case, you want to have as high a population as possible so you can get as many beakers as possible from the city, and get the most kick out of the University in the city (which you almost certainly have if it's birthed a Great Scientist). This % bonus will also work with the Academy. Therefore, putting the Academy on deer or something else that could be developed into a well-contributing tile doesn't make much sense. Your principle makes a lot more sense in the early game, when populations are low and good tiles are precious, but in the early game it's generally agreed that Great Scientists are better used for bulbing critical techs and getting you over the inter-era humps. The main time an Academy would make good sense is when you already have enough of a scientific base that bulbing techs no longer makes sense (e.g., all techs for the foreseeable future can be researched in 7-10 turns, standard speed). At this time, populations have grown and treasuries have, too. You will not have a choice but to work the less desirable tiles near your city. In this context, it makes far more sense to turn a bad tile into a good one than a good one into a great one. The opportunity cost of putting it on deer is quite high. The opportunity cost of putting it on a basic plain, a desert, or a tundra is nil.

Also, later on in the game, if you are worried about food from any angle at all you would probably do just as well to make friends with a Maritime city-state.

 

[Smote]

This is a good principle, but it does not really turn into good practice. In the general case, you want to have as high a population as possible so you can get as many beakers as possible from the city, and get the most kick out of the University in the city (which you almost certainly have if it's birthed a Great Scientist). This % bonus will also work with the Academy. Therefore, putting the Academy on deer or something else that could be developed into a well-contributing tile doesn't make much sense. Your principle makes a lot more sense in the early game, when populations are low and good tiles are precious, but in the early game it's generally agreed that Great Scientists are better used for bulbing critical techs and getting you over the inter-era humps. The main time an Academy would make good sense is when you already have enough of a scientific base that bulbing techs no longer makes sense (e.g., all techs for the foreseeable future can be researched in 7-10 turns, standard speed). At this time, populations have grown and treasuries have, too. You will not have a choice but to work the less desirable tiles near your city. In this context, it makes far more sense to turn a bad tile into a good one than a good one into a great one. The opportunity cost of putting it on deer is quite high. The opportunity cost of putting it on a basic plain, a desert, or a tundra is nil.

Also, later on in the game, if you are worried about food from any angle at all you would probably do just as well to make friends with a Maritime city-state.

I disagree. I think a citizen or specialist is better than using a poor tile. I would recommend using special building on a reasonable tile (plains or grassland), as opposed to tundra and desert and snow.

 

[vexing]

it makes far more sense to turn a bad tile into a good one than a good one into a great one. The opportunity cost of putting it on deer is quite high. The opportunity cost of putting it on a basic plain, a desert, or a tundra is nil.

you do realize the tile you put it on has to be worked to gain any benefit, right?
picture this: 2 citizens,
city surrounded by grasslands, one with sheep, and deserts
obviously the 2 citizens are currently working the sheep tile and a grasslands,

if you build on the desert congratulations, you've moved a citizen off grasslands to work in the desert and stunted your growth.
if you build on the grasslands you can't build a farm there or a trading post in the future for eventually +2 food or +2 gold (missed opportunity cost for real),
if you build on the sheep you can't build a pasture there for +1 food that never increases.

is it really not clear the sheep is the best choice?

 

[YYY]

you do realize the tile you put it on has to be worked to gain any benefit, right?
picture this: 2 citizens,

Please draw your attention to my explanation that when populations are small, it certainly does make sense to put the Academy on the most basely productive tile. The entire problem with this assumption is that by the time Academies are realistically used in game, populations are not small and the dynamics change.

As a counterexample, consider a 15 citizen city with 13 workable tiles (6 + 7 culture pops/land buys), a Market, and a University. I think you'll agree this is a fairly ordinary town once things start getting established. You have the option of putting the Academy on a non-river Plain (1F 1H), a Desert, (null) or sheep (1F 2H - I think. Don't remember entirely right now).

2 citizens can become Specialists in the buildings, and they should for a plethora of reasons. This leaves us with 13 citizens.

Now, we could:
Academy the Sheep, and develop the plain with a Fertilizer farm (or TP, it doesn't change things). This is 1F 2H 5S + 3F 1H = 4F 3H 5S
Academy the Plain and develop the sheep: 2F 2H + 1F 1H 5S = 3F 3H 5S
Academy the Desert and develop both tiles: 2F 2H + 3F 1H + 5S = 5F 3H 5S

In the alternative cases, the extra citizen would've been unemployed, which I think we can agree is not an ideal situation.

I'll not get any further into this, I've said my piece and you folks have said yours. I'll leave it up to the reader to decide what they'd prefer to do.

 

[vexing]

2 citizens can become Specialists in the buildings, and they should for a plethora of reasons. This leaves us with 13 citizens...

i've never once had a situation where i've had to either work a desert tile or have an unemployed citizen... and regardless in that case your analysis does not consider that the desert tile could be improved with a trading post, which gives +2 gold to the first options and +0 to the desert. realistically that citizen would be better off filling a specialist slot, with the academy put on the sheep, and no poor citizens put out in the desert.

 

[juckie]

@ YYY

Spoiler :

Gonna respond, because you are giving reallllly bad advice here. Very bad! Not gonna bother to even respond to all of it.

In the general case you want to have as high a beakercount to happiness ratio-thus scientists are best. And pop... is - still - just - one - beaker.

Therefore, putting the Academy on deer or something else that could be developed into a well-contributing tile doesn't make much sense.

This is as much garbage as I've read on these forums. You state that improving a tile to it's max value is less good, than improving it a bit, and placing the better improvement somewhere else... that's a very mediocre statement.

Your principle makes a lot more sense in the early game, when populations are low and good tiles are precious, but in the early game it's generally agreed that Great Scientists are better used for bulbing critical techs and getting you over the inter-era humps.

Are you serious!?!? There is only one point in the game where an academy is better than bulbing... when techs cost few beakers! Why? Because then it adds relatively the most. Even bulbing the expensive 400 beaker Civil Service is not always better than placing an academy.

The main time an Academy would make good sense is when you already have enough of a scientific base that bulbing techs no longer makes sense (e.g., all techs for the foreseeable future can be researched in 7-10 turns, standard speed). At this time, populations have grown and treasuries have, too.

You're implying that adding +5 beakers when you already produce, say 100, is better than bulbing. But when you can add 5, when you only have 20, it's bad...
Mathquiz! What ratio is better:
A) 5% beakers per turn extra
B) 25% beakers per turn extra

As a counterexample, consider a 15 citizen city with 13 workable tiles (6 + 7 culture pops/land buys), a Market, and a University. I think you'll agree this is a fairly ordinary town once things start getting established. You have the option of putting the Academy on a non-river Plain (1F 1H), a Desert, (null) or sheep (1F 2H - I think. Don't remember entirely right now).

2 citizens can become Specialists in the buildings, and they should for a plethora of reasons. This leaves us with 13 citizens.

In ICS, this is already invalid. But, let's assume for the sake of this argument it's average.
You could also buy another plot of land or make one citizen a merchant. So, probably a bad example, but let's continue anyway.

Academy the Sheep, and develop the plain with a Fertilizer farm (or TP, it doesn't change things). And TP the desert +2 gold.This is 1F 2H 5S + 3F 1H +2C= 4F 3H 2C 5S = 14

Academy the Plain and develop the sheep and TP the desert +2 gold: 2F 2H + 1F 1H 5S + 2C= 3F 3H 2C 5S = 13*

Academy the Desert and develop both tiles: 2F 2H + 3F 1H + 5S = 5F 3H 5S = 13 *

* sheep gives 1 food, farm gives 2 food, bad design... but for another discussion.

So... as this was easily proven, and you're so much wrong.
Please make decent arguments. Don't state opinions as facts, and don't get so damn cocky... it's really annoying to read ><


But, back to the focus of the topic.

@ Topic
You want a cultural game. So you want max pop, least cities.
Then you should get to Acoustics fast, together with the Freedom Social tree. You can bulb the Porcelain tower GS for this, and I would suggest using that GS from writing to make an academy on the highest food yielding tile. Give that city the national college (capital is best for this), and you shield get there very fast and have long term benefits from it.

 

[GHIOMAHN]

Uh, Juckie, if you want to argue the merits of bulbing early, you're going to have to talk to the 'deities' that post the strategy articles. It actually is well established that bulbing early is way superior, especially if it gets you out of the Classical age early. It's not a winning strategy to drop an Academy and research Civil Service for 18 turns when you could've just bulbed it. Normally this sort of thing doesn't get to me, but your over the top reaction actually converted me from a lurker just to point out your bullcrap.

It's also pretty damned funny how you slavering morons Moderator Action: Please don't insult other forum members, thanks. are jumping all over a guy for his secondary advice to a topic. The first bit of advice was to build the Academy near the NC, which is absolutely solid. If you want to call the difference of 1 tile resource 'the worst advice you've ever seen' then I don't think you've been reading these forums very long.