[Guide] Towards a fail proof chariot rush

Going to give the strategy another go tonight. Vicawoo - I read your parable. Quite funny!

I'm probably not 'ready' with my understanding of the game to make it work fully yet. I haven't mastered how to get REX going sufficiently to develop workers, settlers, and military at the same time yet! It probably even isn't totally possible, which is probably the lesson to be learnt. Does rush = foresake REX to some degree?
 
how this applies to normal chariots.
The same strategy applies. The only difference between immortal chariots and regular chariots is 1) their ability to reinforce position and 2) their bonus against archers.

1. We don't use reinforce position in this strategy since we are on the offensive, so it does not make a difference.
2. The bonus against archers helps, but it is not necessary as the only thing that can consistently stop chariots are spearmen. You can overcome archers using regular chariots too, the difference is you will have more losses. However since we aim to produce the maximum number of chariots anyway, this does not change the strategy or build order.

If your second worker can chop 3+ forests, it's worth it. Also, with 2 cities it's cannot keep up improving 2 cities, especially forested hills, with only one worker (and you have to hook up a road). Play around with the timing, choosing to build the second worker at size 3, size 4, etc, to get a feel for when you need worker turns.
The guide mentions 2 workers (one for each city), or even 3 if there are a lot of forests. Generally 2 is enough as you will be done clearing all forests before 1000BC anyway so IMO the 60 hammers needed for a third worker are better spent making 2+ additional chariots at 30 hammer each. Actually more than 2 since a worker stops your growth, and you might be able to get an extra whip (thus chariot) by skipping the third worker.

I think the best moment to make a third worker is after 1000BC and your initial attack, since making an extra chariot at that point won't make a big difference because it has to go all the way to enemy territory. It is generally at that point that I start thinking about growth, making granaries, barracks in second city, etc.

This Darius game is really tough. I've tried it four times now but just can't do it. The problem with Monty, besides having Cu, is that he seems to unit spam regardless of perceived threat - I think this is due to almost instant Worst Enemy mode with Joao or the fact that he's probably coming at me anyway. I get like about 12 to 13 immortals but he already has spears spammed in his cities. Plus, he is a major settler spammer and has a lot of cities already as well as settlers just sitting in some cities.
This usually means you waited too long to attack. In my example when I hit with 15 immortals he had exactly 2 spears. You might want to check with your build order and see if you can speed it up somewhere. Using the BO in the guide and settling your second city near the max of forests makes a big difference.

Also you should attack sooner if you see an opportunity. If the AI founds 3 cities very quickly (REXing), has no copper, and not yet done with bronze working, it generally means you can attack sooner with your first handful of chariots. Especially with REXing... since the AI on immortal starts with 3 archers, and if it makes cities fast then they are spread out and you can easily snatch the capitol.

@mirthadir, solid advice there. I will add a few of those tips to the guide shortly.
 
I suppose the guide is ok, but it's impossible to be fail proof (at least on Immortal which I play). 1:there is a chance there is no horse to grab
2:last game I tried I had optimal start, attacked Wang Kon (protective, but he was my only neighbour) and destroyed his copper city in turn 62, but I lost 3 immortals to his 2 protective archers already, then with another 7 or 8 immortals I go for his capitol, apparently he has ironworking already because its guarded by a swordsman a spearman and 2 archers.... with 40% culture bonus. Less than 1% chance odds. He has a third city but even while trying to eliminate the iron as well 1 or 2 immortals get raped each turn by his units. I can't scout for bloody iron so early :(

All in all a nice read, but fail proof is misleading.
 
This is why I did not call it fail proof.

I called it "towards a fool proof rush", meaning we try to eliminate as many random and unfavorable elements as possible to greatly improve our chances of success and get as close as possible to a fail proof strategy

But as with everything, there is no guarantee. Moltke's saying applies here "no plan survives contact with the enemy". Or in its less catchy, but clearer form : "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength".

First encounter here are the 2-3 turns after your declaration of war. This is the core of the rush, and the primary focus of this guide. As long as you do a lot of damage and cripple your enemy, then the rush did its job. It is up to the player (and its skill level) to leverage this advantage beyond the early attack.

In all cases for those who run into problems, post a savegame from before you launch your attack, and one after failure. As time permits I (and maybe others) will try to have a look and see what went wrong / provide advice if possible.
 
I'm probably not 'ready' with my understanding of the game to make it work fully yet. I haven't mastered how to get REX going sufficiently to develop workers, settlers, and military at the same time yet! It probably even isn't totally possible, which is probably the lesson to be learnt. Does rush = foresake REX to some degree?

In a rush you aren't building many workers or settlers... maybe one settler to grab a rush resource, and at most two workers to improve terrain and chop. The idea is that you are REXing through conquest. With a standard REX, you end up with five or six cities, a handful of units to guard them, and maybe a small cache of gold from huts which will surely be dwindling as maintenence goes up. With a RUSHREX, you end up with five or six cities, a stack of units, and a pile of gold from conquering your neighbor. Which sounds better? ;)

Only problem is that the RUSHREX isn't foolproof, and you can really nerf yourself if it fails spectacularly.
 
The same strategy applies. The only difference between immortal chariots and regular chariots is 1) their ability to reinforce position and 2) their bonus against archers.

1. We don't use reinforce position in this strategy since we are on the offensive, so it does not make a difference.
2. The bonus against archers helps, but it is not necessary as the only thing that can consistently stop chariots are spearmen. You can overcome archers using regular chariots too, the difference is you will have more losses. However since we aim to produce the maximum number of chariots anyway, this does not change the strategy or build order.


The guide mentions 2 workers (one for each city), or even 3 if there are a lot of forests. Generally 2 is enough as you will be done clearing all forests before 1000BC anyway so IMO the 60 hammers needed for a third worker are better spent making 2+ additional chariots at 30 hammer each. Actually more than 2 since a worker stops your growth, and you might be able to get an extra whip (thus chariot) by skipping the third worker.

I think the best moment to make a third worker is after 1000BC and your initial attack, since making an extra chariot at that point won't make a big difference because it has to go all the way to enemy territory. It is generally at that point that I start thinking about growth, making granaries, barracks in second city, etc.


This usually means you waited too long to attack. In my example when I hit with 15 immortals he had exactly 2 spears. You might want to check with your build order and see if you can speed it up somewhere. Using the BO in the guide and settling your second city near the max of forests makes a big difference.

Also you should attack sooner if you see an opportunity. If the AI founds 3 cities very quickly (REXing), has no copper, and not yet done with bronze working, it generally means you can attack sooner with your first handful of chariots. Especially with REXing... since the AI on immortal starts with 3 archers, and if it makes cities fast then they are spread out and you can easily snatch the capitol.

@mirthadir, solid advice there. I will add a few of those tips to the guide shortly.

My mistake, I read warrior or second worker as your second worker. Third worker is for axe rushes, where 10 to 20 worker turns building roads to your enemies detracts from chopping significantly.

Warning: the rest is details concerning high level efficiency
Second worker in the first city is better than worker first in second city, unless you're skipping the barracks in the second city.
First, it's faster, so more worker turns.
Second, your first worker is going to improving your second city linking it to your first city, so if you don't build a worker in the first city, it may grow into unimproved tiles before worker #1 can return.
Third, and most importantly, it maximizes yield. Where you build your worker is a choice between growing from size~ 3 to 4 in your capital or growing from size 1 to 2 in city #2. Your capital is working 1 to 2 mines, so the food to hammer ratio* is far inferior to the city #2 growing off one improved food resource. Also growing to size 2 takes less food.

*The food to hammer ratio is important because hammers in barracks/chariots does not increase your production and as such are "wasted" in the short term, whereas food makes you grow, which means more production. Therefore it's preferable to build workers in a low food to hammer ratio city, and grow in high food to hammer ratio cities. I hope this makes sense.

Deciding at which size to stop growing is important too. Say you're size 4, and you're +2 food while working mines. Do you reallocate to grassland forests to grow faster, do you grow normally, or do you switch to plains/mines to stop growth? In the long run, if you can work an extra mine (+2), how many turns will it take to pay itself back in terms of hammers, and will you even have that much time before you attack? Yes you could whip it off, but you could whip at size 4 and not have an unhappy citizen. You can also skip a garrison if you stay at size 4.

And this is more relevant for axe rushes, but sometimes you want to freeze reinforcements by sending a lone unit to one of their other cities. Even workers can distract them if they don't have roads. And if you're really afraid of spearman counter-attacks, make an archer.

Also in rushes too much food (as in say +10 food) isn't useful, since you can only grow to 4/5.
 
Thanks so much for the guide. I had the basic idea already, but I learned so much from this. I was struggling with that same Darius Imm Uni game, having two failed rush attempts, but after reading this guide I hit him with 21 immortals in 975BC, took 3 cities (including capital) in 3 turns and finished him off with barely another loss.

For me, the lessons were:
* Building the barracks while growing after first worker, instead of worthless warriors.
* Attacking by 1000BC (I had been waiting until I ran out of forests and population, but the cost of the delay was noticable)
* Not building barracks in city 2.
* Taking scouting more seriously.

I have a couple of ideas to add:
* In that particular game, I went mining->bw->ah. Animal handling still comes in before the settler is built, so you still know where to send it in time. The benefits are an earlier slavery revolt (which can be slightly more efficient when your worker is improving a worked tile), and the ability to use a chop on the settler, giving the second city faster, resulting in one more immortal from the second city. Not always the right choice though, and depends on starting techs and resources.
* I also agree with vicawoo about building the second worker in the capital, for the reasons given.
* It's good to keep the workers out of sync with each other. Make sure they don't all finish their chop on the same turn or you may end up with too much overflow, and lost hammers. This affects the timing of the whip as well.
* You don't mention promotions. I'm starting to think combat 1 is always better than flanking for the simple reason that it reduces the chance of doing no damage at all to the defender. In a rush, it's all about the first attack, by the time a withdrawn chariot heals it's probably already been decided one way or another anyway. The important thing I think is not losing too many chariots to the black hole of no-defender-damage.
 
This is a great guide. I had my first AI knocked out in record time, 1240BC! I built 13 chariots and lost 4 while killing 6 archers and 2 chariots. (on Emperor level). I varied by stealing a worker. If you start with a warrior instead of a scout, you can steal the worker from your first target because the AI will agree to peace quickly after your warrior leaves with the worker, and on the way back make a road!
 
I did a chariot rush on the Inca as Cathy. I did a 2 worker steal with 1 chariot, then got extremely lucky and won a 20% to take his city. But I did not have enough chariots to take on 2 archers on a hill in his Buddah capitol.

I did manage to pillage every single tile in his BFC. He went into the weird "I am not going to build any units" mode and after 1000 years I had 9 chariots and he only had 3 archers. So I took him out.

Unfortunately, the Inca never contatced Cyrus before I killed them and I was stuck in duel mode with Cyrus because of it and my economy was in ruins due to distance upkeep. Beware.
 
My rush game became vastly better when I learned when NOT to rush. I would frequently make the mistake of deciding on a rush and getting tunnel vision and sticking to the rush even if it became unlikely to be successful.

Basically, on normal speed, if I can get 8+ chariots together by 2000 BC, then a chariot rush has a decent probability of success. If I can't do that, then I need to stop, and either move toward an axe rush, or REX and develop for a while. Axe rush generally needs to be ready by 1500 BC at the latest. If that isn't going to happen, or if my only rush targets are prot or sitting on high defense locations, then best practice is to call it off and look for the next window,which is cats/phants (many players probably wouldn't consider this a rush). If that isn't viable, then best bet is to call off the rush, build a decent army and wait for a war to pile onto.

Also, this would seem obvious, but it wasn't to me for a while: not all AI opponents are created equal. Certain AI's like Mansa, Pericles, and the Egyptians (thanks for the shrine!) are juicy rush targets. Others, like Hammurabi and Sitting Bull, are not. Get familiar with the different leaders and understand what they are likely to do and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Alternatively, if I have lots of REX room, then I have to consider peaceful expansion and no rush at all. Nothing wrong with building a respectable army and simply waiting for an opportunity to arise.

Once I learned to know when to hold em and know when to fold em, I became a much better early game player. But it took me a couple of games of getting a ten stack of axemen slaughtered by 2 bowman on a hill to figure this out.
 
The immortal scout technique

If you start with a scout, only move 1 tile at a time instead of 2 then hit SPACE to skip its turn. Also avoid walking on forests and hills. Why? First move you explore the unknown, and if you encounter an animal/barb you can retreat / avoid him with the second move. If you keep using both moves and step near an enemy, you will die and replacing this early scouting unit will slow down your rush.

It is acceptable to move 2 tiles if you are near the coast line or in populated area (when circling enemy city) where chances for barb presence are minor.

*AFAIK I have seen no other person using or mentioning this technique. Either it is a new idea or it is documented somewhere, in which case I'd like to have a link to give proper credit.

Ha, time to read your Attacko's! ;)

I think that Troy forgot to mention another superior Attacko's scout tactic:

  • move on flat terrain only
  • use 1 movement point only
  • if you see a barb, move back

clearly, power scout>>warrior ;)

I've seen it mentioned in some GOTM or BOTM a few years ago, can't remember where.

Very nice guide, btw! :cool:
 
I find when doing an immortal rush, just like you said, you have to hit once and hit hard. You can't choke the enemy because the moment you declare war, he spams units. Even with their bonus vs. archers, immortals can't take a city with walls and archers defending it, unless you have 3 or 4 to 1 numbers. Thus I find the only way to really immortal rush is to make a big stack, of about 15, head to the capitol, declare, take the capitol, and then choke and pillage his metals.
 
I did this too on Imm U and failed because monty had iron hooked up. There's no way to know where the iron is. The number of units and year were better than 10 / 1000 bc and after sacking one city, I took out the "lone" copper. Then after sending in like 6 units to die killing the first spearman, he was reinforced the following turn with another spear. And trying to lure out the spear doesn't matter when he whips out another from iron.
 
There is a way to tell where the iron is, turn "show tile yields" on and you see the extra production. Unless a city is built on iron.
 
Yeah, but that only works for flatland, show tile yield works all the time ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom