Guild/Corporation Yield Balancing

[Vokarya]

As long as the combination of Mobby Meats + Mobby Meats Store offers more food than Butchery, it will still be a positive to spread the corp to the city, even if it isn't quite as efficient as Mobby Meats + Store + unreplaced Butchery. Butchery tops out at +5 food, and Mobby Meats will generate 0.5 food per copy of each resource, so that means it isn't too difficult to get better than Butchery from the corporation alone. If Mobby Meats Store was around +7% food rather than +4% per resource, then even 1 copy of 2 resources each would be +3 food from the Butchery, but +1 food plus +14% overall food for the city, a gain as soon as the city hit 14 food/turn from any other sources, which is not hard to do. An irrigated Farm is +5 food/turn by that time.

I think most cities by the time corporations start taking off should be capable of taking advantage of +% food. Cities start at size 4 (Pioneer) and unless they are drowning in unhappiness (which I will admit is possible) they can work a few tiles while at the same time raking in additional food from the corporation.

 

[<Nexus>]

Furthermore, Fur and Ivory both obsolete over the course of the game and that leaves Safari Hunters with very little to do.

I think things were so much easier if those two would not go obsolete. Why do they need to??

Fur:
In real life it never became 'obsolete'. 'Depleted' maybe but not obsolete.
Just ask any woman: "What do you think? When did fur go obsolete?"
She would answer: "You wanna buy me a fur coat?"

Ivory:
1) The name is wrong at all. It's not only the 'ivory' part that is used but the whole 'elephant' for the military units. Should be renamed.
2) 'Elephant' as a resource does not go obsolete - only the units provided by it.

Fur and Elephant would be still useful in the later game for corporations and Zoo.

 

[Vokarya]

I think things were so much easier if those two would not go obsolete. Why do they need to??

Fur:
In real life it never became 'obsolete'. 'Depleted' maybe but not obsolete.
Just ask any woman: "What do you think? When did fur go obsolete?"
She would answer: "You wanna buy me a fur coat?"

Ivory:
1) The name is wrong at all. It's not only the 'ivory' part that is used but the whole 'elephant' for the military units. Should be renamed.
2) 'Elephant' as a resource does not go obsolete - only the units provided by it.

Fur and Elephant would be still useful in the later game for corporations and Zoo.

The resources obsoleting comes from BTS. I understand it as fur and ivory becoming less and less important once substitutes (synthetic fibers and plastics) become available. I don't mind. Priorities should shift during a game this long.

We are NEVER going to change Ivory's name as long as I have anything to say about it. I don't give up names that short easily, and I don't give up a name that comes from BTS without a VERY good reason. (Also, it's what C2C did and I will refuse just about anything that they did as long as it wasn't something I did personally. I absolutely hate their approach to naming.)

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I have to say that this is Vokarya's field but I really agree with his point of view. I don't see any need for changes here.

 

[Vokarya]

I've been trying to figure out what to do about Mapster. In order that it doesn't overlap too much with Red Curtains, I like the idea of it being the one corporation that turns a profit, since it isn't available until much later than any other corporation (Networking tech) and there is a limit to how much it can produce, since it only draws from the three entertainment wonders (Broadway, Hollywood, and Rock N Roll). What I want is for Mapster to be profitable if you control at least 2 of the 3 entertainment sources.

I tried reverse-engineering the maintenance formulas, but they are so complex and there are so many factors involved that I decided it wasn't very practical. So what I'm going to try is increasing Mapster to +1.25 gold per resource from 0.75. If that's too much, then we can start bringing it down.

 

[Vokarya]

The last two of the main corporations that I want to tweak are MoonBean Coffee and Wonka Confectioneries. These two corporations are actually very similar; they provide culture and happiness, and consume similar resources. They share Coffee, Sugar, and Tea, and MoonBean uses Tobacco while Wonka counts Salt and Spices. MoonBean produces +2 happiness and a Hemp resource, which counts for about half a happiness since it doesn't do anything else except for a small commerce bonus with Textile Mill. Wonka provides +3 happiness and -1 health. The happiness bonuses don't scale with resources provided, so these two corporations should be less effective at culture production than Safari Hunters/Fashion House, but not by too much.

I think a fair level of culture production would be +3 culture/resource for MoonBean, and +2.5 culture/resource for Wonka. This is probably lowballing it, but I want to start here.

 

[Vokarya]

Unlike Corporations, where I think it was appropriate to pull their statistics downward for food and upwards for everything else, I think Guilds need to be brought down across the board. The benchmark stat I have in mind is equal to about 1 specialist, minus the Great Person production but plus about a point of yield; this is fairly close to Hanging Gardens and its +1 population/+1 health. So this is what I think these guilds should do.

Crafts Guilds

• Blacksmiths Guild: Reduce from +3 hammers base to +2 hammers, reduce the yield from Copper and Iron from +2 hammer/resource to +0.5 hammers/resource, and reduce the health penalty to -1. This is probably the most powerful guild and needs to be reined in. This will probably be as effective as a free Engineer (which would be +2 hammers) in every city.
  
• Carpenters Guild: Reduce from +4 hammers to +2 hammers. It keeps the +1 gold; this offsets the corporation maintenance, which is usually only about 1-2 gold per city. It has no unhealth, unlike Blacksmiths Guild.
  
• Glassblowers Guild: Reduce from +3 hammers base to +1 hammer, reduce the yield from Salt and Stone from +1 hammer to +0.5 hammers. It should not be as good at production as Masons Guild, since it does provide Glass, although currently you can get Glass from either Sand OR Stone (in far previous versions, you needed both and Salt was pretty rare).
• Goldsmiths Guild: Reduce from +1.5 gold/resource to +0.5 gold/resource, and remove the health and happiness penalties. Keep the +2 gold per city; this makes it profitable from the get-go.
  
• Masons Guild: Reduce from +2 hammers base to +1 hammers, reduce the yield from Stone from +2.5 hammers to +1 hammer, and delete the -2 heath. This will mean getting 2-3 hammers, depending on how much Stone you have. Masons only uses 1 resource, so I think it can keep the 1x multiplier.

Servants Guilds

• Apothecaries Guild: Reduce from +4 science to +2 science. The +2 health is the primary benefit to this guild, and it shouldn't be as good as Clerks Guild (see below).
  
• Artists Guild: Remove the +2 happiness. +4 culture is slightly better than a free Artist (+3 culture).
• Clerks Guild: Reduce from +4 science to +3 science. Science is a little better than Culture, so a Science-producing guild should produce less beakers than a Culture-producing guild.
  
• Drapers Guild: Reduce from +1 culture/resource to +0.5 culture per resource. Keep the +2 base culture. This will make it close to Artists Guild if you have enough resources.
• Equestrians Guild: Reduce from +1.5 hammers/resource to +1. Equestrians Guild has only 2 resources to work with, but it does produce Horse, which is powerful if you have no other sources.

Victuallers Guilds

• Bakers Guild: Reduce from +1 food/resource to +0.5 food/resource. I think for the food guilds, +1 food base and +0.5 per resource seems about right. You will get some food bonus with even 1 resource, but you need 4 resources to support a single extra citizen and 10 resources to support 2.
• Butchers Guild: Reduce from +1 food/resource to +0.5 food/resource. This is just like Bakers Guild.
  
• Fishmongers Guild: Leave this intact. It's right where I think a Guild should be.
• Grocers Guild: Reduce from +1 food/resource to +0.5 food/resource. This is just like Butchers and Bakers Guild. So the choice between these four is which do you have the most resources of (grain for Bakers, meat for Butchers, fish for Fishmongers, or fruit for Grocers).
  
• Mercers Guild: Reduce from +1.5 gold/resource to +0.5 gold/resource and remove the -1 happiness. Mercers should produce a little gold, but not enough to need to be balanced with a happiness penalty.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Looks very good to me.

 

[Vokarya]

To flatten out the Corporate Store buildings, I think raising Mobby Meats to +7% food (from +4%) per resource will be enough to compensate for losing the flat +1 food per resource. Also, we can flatten MallWart store by adding +3% culture per food resource. At most, Supermarket generates +7 commerce. A few of the bonuses are different, but I think this will be enough overall.

 

[Pongui]

I play with Guilds and Corps auto-founding, so they're something of an event. Imbalance affects gameplay as good or bad luck.

East/West Traders needs an identity... I feel the name is vague. It could trade literally anything.

It stands for East India Company. So the main thing is bonuses from "exotic" resources, especially tropical ones. It could be a late guild or early corporation, maybe overpowered but quickly obsolete.

I think things were so much easier if those two would not go obsolete. Why do they need to??

Fur , Ivory

Most game resource obsolescence in real world, was by global consensus - banned by UN resolution. Whales and Ivory obviously. Also to some extent Fur, Hemp, Uranium... effectively banning Coal is under debate. The game's UN system allows for resource banning.

 

[Vokarya]

It stands for East India Company. So the main thing is bonuses from "exotic" resources, especially tropical ones. It could be a late guild or early corporation, maybe overpowered but quickly obsolete.

Yes and no. East/West comes too late to be the East India Company, at Combustion tech. That's why I added a "proper" East India Company at Colonialism. I was originally trying to shore up Corporation when it was in the mid-Renaissance Era, since you wouldn't get anything for it other than Wall Street. You'd have to wait until into the Industrial Era to get any other required tech for a corporation. When I bumped Corporation to the Industrial Era, I used EIC as an extra trick for Colonialism.

So with a real East India Company in the game, East/West Traders could be anything else. I'm choosing to go with the niche that EIC is the jack-of-all-trades, giving you a small boost in a lot of areas.

Most game resource obsolescence in real world, was by global consensus - banned by UN resolution. Whales and Ivory obviously. Also to some extent Fur, Hemp, Uranium... effectively banning Coal is under debate. The game's UN system allows for resource banning.

Not Civ 4 - Civ 5 can do that. Civ4's UN can only ban nuclear weapons. I think banning resources by UN vote is a good idea, but I can't program that.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I've considered UN resolution to ban resources some time ago. I'm not yet sure it's a good idea or worth the effort.

@Vokarya, we answered at the same time and my answer was directed at pongui. Since you like the resolution proposal, can you tell me what you like about it? I might consider adding it if I have a good reason to.

 

[Vokarya]

I've considered UN resolution to ban resources some time ago. I'm not yet sure it's a good idea or worth the effort.

@Vokarya, we answered at the same time and my answer was directed at pongui. Since you like the resolution proposal, can you tell me what you like about it? I might consider adding it if I have a good reason to.

I just think a resource-ban vote would be an interesting thing for the UN to do. It currently has the victory vote (which is useless if you play Mastery Victory), free trade, no nukes, various forced civics (some of which are counterproductive in the endgame when even better civics are available), and some rare force peace/force war/force no trade/assign city votes. So it's not a very interesting list overall.

If it's going to be a complicated issue to add, then I can live without it.

 

[Pongui]

Dang, I'd thought No Nukes simply deactivated the resource Uranium.

Vokarya, the role you described for East/West Traders, I like. Thanks.

Oh, here's something. Would you like some Tobacco? Well this resource nobody wants, perhaps a corporation could bring it to life. Moonbean does hemp for some reason. Or perhaps East/West could also stand for tobacco companies?

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I just think a resource-ban vote would be an interesting thing for the UN to do. It currently has the victory vote (which is useless if you play Mastery Victory), free trade, no nukes, various forced civics (some of which are counterproductive in the endgame when even better civics are available), and some rare force peace/force war/force no trade/assign city votes. So it's not a very interesting list overall.

If it's going to be a complicated issue to add, then I can live without it.

It shouldn't be too difficult, I'll try and see what I can do. Which resources should be a target for a possible ban?

 

[nionios]

Dang, I'd thought No Nukes simply deactivated the resource Uranium.

Vokarya, the role you described for East/West Traders, I like. Thanks.

Oh, here's something. Would you like some Tobacco? Well this resource nobody wants, perhaps a corporation could bring it to life. Moonbean does hemp for some reason. Or perhaps East/West could also stand for tobacco companies?

Pongui, do you mean that banning nukes is equivalent to banning uranium?
I don't think so.Uranium is still necessary for nuclear ships and nuclear plant.

 

[Pongui]

Pongui, do you mean that banning nukes is equivalent to banning uranium?
I don't think so.Uranium is still necessary for nuclear ships and nuclear plant.

I'd wrongly thought it was a resource ban, yes.

In real life the Non-Proliferation Treaty effectively bans Uranium extraction and processing, while public opinion greatly restricts Nuclear Plants within countries that vote "Never!". For simplicity in game terms the current status of Uranium is more like total ban than free-for-all (a few civs retain upgradable missiles and such stockpiled before the ban) . Kinda like there is some Whaling today, but it's no where near capacity.

So if UN resource ban gets enabled (thanks 45°38'N-13°47'E) candidate resources could be anything greatly restricted by global consensus. Hemp? Tobacco? Especially those resources we'd rather obsolete in later eras anyway.

 

[Vokarya]

It shouldn't be too difficult, I'll try and see what I can do. Which resources should be a target for a possible ban?

I think the fuel resources of Coal, Oil, and Uranium would be really good targets. Banning Oil would be a way to really throw a wrench into any heavy military buildup, as most offensive units need Oil Products and banning Oil would cut that off unless you had Shale Plant, Standard Ethanol, or Biofuel Refinery. I wouldn't do an actual ban on Oil Products; I think it's appropriate to have a few workarounds in place.

Beyond that, it is a question of how many luxury resources you want to target. There is a LONG list of resources that I would classify as "luxury": Alcohol, Ancient Relics, Coffee, Cotton, Dye, Fossils, Fur, Gems, Gold, Hemp, Hit Movies, Hit Musicals, Hit Singles, Incense, Ivory, Olives, Pearls, Silk, Silver, Sugar, Tea, Tobacco, Whale, and Wine. Whale is the only health-boosting resource on this list. I think for balancing purposes, we should affect many of these resources and not just a few.

 

[Rezca]

I think the fuel resources of Coal, Oil, and Uranium would be really good targets. Banning Oil would be a way to really throw a wrench into any heavy military buildup, as most offensive units need Oil Products and banning Oil would cut that off unless you had Shale Plant, Standard Ethanol, or Biofuel Refinery. I wouldn't do an actual ban on Oil Products; I think it's appropriate to have a few workarounds in place.

Beyond that, it is a question of how many luxury resources you want to target. There is a LONG list of resources that I would classify as "luxury": Alcohol, Ancient Relics, Coffee, Cotton, Dye, Fossils, Fur, Gems, Gold, Hemp, Hit Movies, Hit Musicals, Hit Singles, Incense, Ivory, Olives, Pearls, Silk, Silver, Sugar, Tea, Tobacco, Whale, and Wine. Whale is the only health-boosting resource on this list. I think for balancing purposes, we should affect many of these resources and not just a few.

When you say 'affect many and not just a few', you mean like say... Gather them up into subcategories? So you'd ban a category and it'd pull the resources collected under it as well (Like the Movies/Musicals/Singles could be in one category, Ivory, Whale, Fur, possibly Fossils/Pearls in another, Gold, Gems, Silver, and/or Pearls in one... etc)

 

[Vokarya]

When you say 'affect many and not just a few', you mean like say... Gather them up into subcategories? So you'd ban a category and it'd pull the resources collected under it as well (Like the Movies/Musicals/Singles could be in one category, Ivory, Whale, Fur, possibly Fossils/Pearls in another, Gold, Gems, Silver, and/or Pearls in one... etc)

I was thinking more of a sub-list. You'd pick "Ban a Resource", then launch a second list to pick exactly which resource to ban. You could ban resources individually to mess with your enemies the most, and they could do the same to you.