Guild/Corporation Yield Balancing

[Vokarya]

We need to look at re-balancing the yields of guilds and corporations. Some guilds and corporations are proving to be much better than others. Blacksmiths Guild, Bakers Guild, Burgerworld, and Mobby Meats probably need to get cut down.

Here's some formulas I used when balancing improvements that I will probably use here as well.

1 food = 1 hammer = 2 commerce = 2 health = 2 happiness. Health and happiness aren't worth very much if you already have enough of them, but yields stack up.
3 gold = 3 science = 4 culture = 4 espionage. This is based on the various specialists (Merchant, Scientist, Artist, Spy).

Let me know if you think any other guild is too strong/too weak. I'm thinking at this point that Sid's Sushi/Cereal Mills is a good point for balancing food corporations, and Mining Inc is probably the balance point for production corporations, although it may be too strong.

 

[Vokarya]

Has anyone calculated a formula to estimate how many of a given bonus will be placed on a map? That would really help for balancing corporations. At the very least, I see the factors of <iConstAppearance>, <iTilesPer>, <iGroupRange>, and <iGroupRand>. I don't think it's enough to make an estimate.

 

[Vokarya]

Also, I was starting to look at the Corporations. My current feeling is that the original 7 corporations are good benchmarks to use, and that the other corporations should be balanced against them. These corporations have not been altered from BTS. We can divide the corps into a few separate groups for benchmarking.

• Food Corporations: Cereal Mills, Sid's Sushi Co
• Production Corporations: Mining Inc, Creative Constructions
  
• Commerce Corporations: Civilized Jewelers
• Special Corporations: Aluminum Co (provides Aluminum), Standard Ethanol (provides Oil Products)

 

[thegreekweegee]

In my game, I decided that instead of how many bonuses will be placed on a map, the amount of competitors will be the benchmark. Standard Ethanol, which has a high amount of competitors, gets more yields as a result, while Sid's Sushi Co, which has few competitors, gets fewer yields to compensate.

I've also uploaded a file with all the changes done to corporations, along with the corp balancing text file as a reference sheet. Feel free to use WinMerge to see the tweaks; While Civ4BuildingInfos has more than the corporation tweaks, you can simply focus your attention onto just them.

By analyzing my tweaks, you'll notice two things: that I've made corps a tad overpowered, and that milehigh travels has been axed. The first one, I can't help; it's simply my vision of things, and you may feel free to craft your own vision. I'm just uploading this so you can draw ideas from, if you wish. Second one, I can actually explain: milehigh travels feels like an extra. Resources are all over the place, it needlessly competes with other corporations, and I legitimately couldn't find heads or tails of whatit was supposed to represent. It's a travel agency, yes, but the resources are all over the place.

So yeah, I hope you can make something out of my efforts.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm not touching the original seven corporations; those are my benchmarks, and Standard Ethanol especially does not need to be boosted. As I see it, its real purpose is to be a source of Oil Products for a civilization without any natural Oil, and the research bonus is just to make it have a use for a civilization that does have Oil or gets access to Oil later on. In fact, it's about the only way to get Oil Products without Oil until the tail end of the Modern Era.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's my first run at the food corporations.The newer food corps need to be brought down a lot to bring them into parity with Cereal Mills (+0.75 food per resource @ 4 possible resources) and Sid's Sushi Co (+0.5 food and +2 culture per resource @ 5 possible resources). One thing I noticed is that the food corporations produce much less than other corporations when comparing yields, but I think +food needs to be kept in check to avoid cities getting supersized.

Mobby Meats: Reduce from +2 food/resource (@ 5 possible resources) to +0.5 food/resource and delete the -1 health. This quarters Mobby Meats' effectiveness, but makes it a closer comparison to Cereal Mills among Industrial Age corporations.

Burgerworld: Reduce from +2 food/resource (@ 5 possible resources) to +0.5 food/resource and add +1 gold/resource. This makes Burgerworld more of a minor booster that isn't quite so expensive to run. It keeps its -1 health.

MallWart: Reduce from +2 food/resource (@ 5 possible resources) to +0.75 food/resource. MallWart doesn't show up until the Modern Era so it can be a little more efficient.

 

[Vokarya]

I don't think Fashion House needs to be altered at all. Comparing it to Civilized Jewelers, it generates as much total commerce (+5 culture, compared to +1 gold/+4 culture from CJ) from more resources, but gold is worth slightly more than culture 1-for-1 (Merchant produces 3 gold, while Artist produces 4 culture) so I think it comes out even.

Emperors Clothing could use a bit of a boost. It currently produces +2 gold/+1 culture per resource and a flat +1 happiness. I think it would be better producing +2 gold/+2 culture per resource.

Red Curtains could also use a boost. It currently produces +2 culture/resource. I think it can be increased to +3. The balancing factor for Red Curtains is control over the entertainment wonders of Broadway, Hollywood, and Rock N Roll. I want Red Curtains to be just as good as any other corporation if you control two out of the three, and really good if you control all 3. At 2 culture/resource, RC gets +10 culture per wonder on a Standard map (unless you trade some of the resources). That is equal to 2 resources for Fashion House, or less than 3 resources for Civilized Jewelers. A big empire should be able to get more than that quantity of resources. So for RC, 3 culture/resource or 15 culture/Wonder, would be powerful but comparable to other corporations.

 

[Vokarya]

Still working on Corporations. Here are some ideas.

Adventure Tours: Boost to +2 culture/+2 science per resource. Adventure Tours is the corporation of "exotic location" travel and ecotourism. Out of the three travel corporations (that used to exist together at the now-deleted Tourism tech), this one is the only one I want as a science corporation.

MileHigh Travels: Change to +2 gold/+2 culture per resource. MileHigh is supposed to be the "luxury travel" corporation. I think I got there with the resources but didn't adjust the yields. MileHigh is not supposed to be a science corp. I also don't want it to be strictly superior to Red Curtains. It has the same resources as Red Curtains plus more.

Safari Hunters: This one gets changed around a bit more. First, add Lead to the resources consumed. Second, I'd like to consolidate this a bit. Safari Hunters currently has +1 science/+1 culture per resource and a flat +1 happiness/+1 health. I'd like to replace all of this with +4 culture/resource and flat +1 food/city (not per resource). I don't think of Safari Hunters as a science corporation. The health/happiness bonus is uncertain for me. I'd like to use it less if possible, but it could be kept if anyone really cares (but then I'd probably go down to +3 culture/resource).

 

[Vokarya]

East/West Traders needs an identity. Right now, it's halfway between Fashion House and Wonka Confectionaries, with a culture yield in between and part of the resources from both. Also, I feel the name is vague. It could trade literally anything.

I think the best thing to do here is to embrace the "jack-of-all-trades" niche. We currently have 21 main corporations. We have some food corps: Burgerworld, Cereal Mills, MallWart, Mobby Meats, Sid's Sushi; some production corps: Creative Constructions, Mining Inc, Ultimate Soldiers; some culture corps: Civilized Jewelers, Fashion House, Red Curtains, Safari Hunters (post-changes); some mixed-commerce corps: Adventure Tours post-changes, Emperor's Clothing, Mile High Travels post-changes; and a couple of resource corps: Aluminum Co, Standard Ethanol. Mapster, Moonbeam, and Wonka fall together under a "happiness corp" umbrella, but I need to look at them in detail.

So I think this set of bonuses will give EW Traders clearer:

• +1 gold, +1 science, +1 culture per resource consumed (not changing the resources; still Cotton, Silk, Coffee, Spices, Sugar)
  
• +1 food, +1 production, +1 commerce in each city with EW
• +1 health, +1 happiness in each city with EW

A lot of small bonuses, but nothing as big as any one corporation. It will fall behind once you get a few resources together. The average commerce corp would produce 4-5 total commerce per resource, so with 8 resources, that means EW produces +24 total commerces, in addition to +1 food/+1 production/+1 commerce while other corporations would produce 32-40 total commerces.

 

[Rezca]

Liking the proposed changes so far

 

[Vokarya]

Fixing the Corporations is mostly a matter of reining in the food corps to the same levels as Cereal Mills/Sid's Sushi and then boosting the others to the same level as Civilized Jewelers/Fashion House.

The Guilds, on the other hand, need to be toned down, at least in part. The way I am thinking about it is by comparing the Guilds to other World Wonders. For example, +3 food/city from a Guild is equivalent to Hanging Gardens' +1 population in all cities. +6 food/city is too much. Likewise, every +2 hammers from a guild is equal to the production (if not the GPP) of 1 Engineer specialist. So, for the extra work you have to do to get a Guild, slightly better than 1 specialist seems about right.

 

[<Nexus>]

Safari Hunters: This one gets changed around a bit more. First, add Lead to the resources consumed.

Lead?! Lead?! What on earth does it has to do with lead???
I know... Bullets... But I remember axing the bonus from Obsidian for Hospital for not being significant enough. It's the same.
I think ammo can be made of almost any metal with the right process.

All the rest look good to me.

 

[thegreekweegee]

What Zeta Nexus said. I'm really not a fan of adding resources to corporations and complicating the competition system.

Otherwise, things look fine.

 

[Vokarya]

Lead?! Lead?! What on earth does it has to do with lead???
I know... Bullets... But I remember axing the bonus from Obsidian for Hospital for not being significant enough. It's the same.
I think ammo can be made of almost any metal with the right process.

All the rest look good to me.

Actually, I like the competition system. It prevents you from stacking up a lot of bonuses from different corporations and you have to choose carefully. Ultimate Soldiers especially could use some competition and this provides it. I also think it wouldn't hurt to have corporations occasionally drawing a resource from a different group.

Furthermore, Fur and Ivory both obsolete over the course of the game and that leaves Safari Hunters with very little to do. I think 5 resources is the "sweet spot" for corporations, with 4 being okay and 3 or less being reserved for very specific corporations, like Aluminum Co only using Bauxite/Coal because, as I see it, its real purpose is to give you a second way to get Aluminum without Bauxite as long as you have Coal. So giving Lead to Safari Hunters would make it just strong enough.

The problem with Hospital was there was too much health running around. Right now, I think it's very well-balanced around the Industrial and Modern Eras; you have to carefully weigh building unhealthy buildings against waiting for more healthy ones to absorb the unhealth.

 

[aggri1]

Is there any desire to consolidate the bonuses inherent to the corporation with the effects of the corresponding 'store'? For instance, East West provides culture but the store gives food. I don't see that as a bad thing, but I think we should include the effects of the 'store' when thinking about balancing corporations.

Also, some stores give percentage-based enhancements, others give flat bonuses. I think that if they all worked the same way they'd be much easier to compare. Of course that would mean NOT making them replacements for other non-corporation buildings (like supermarket and theater).

Cheers, A.

 

[Vokarya]

Is there any desire to consolidate the bonuses inherent to the corporation with the effects of the corresponding 'store'? For instance, East West provides culture but the store gives food. I don't see that as a bad thing, but I think we should include the effects of the 'store' when thinking about balancing corporations.

Also, some stores give percentage-based enhancements, others give flat bonuses. I think that if they all worked the same way they'd be much easier to compare. Of course that would mean NOT making them replacements for other non-corporation buildings (like supermarket and theater).

Cheers, A.

All the bonuses that are inherent to the stores are percentage-based bonuses. The flat bonuses are bonuses that are copied from a replaced building (Mobby Meats Store replaces Butchery, MallWart Store replaces Supermarket).

I'll look into it on a second pass. Mapster doesn't even have a store, so it gets even more disadvantaged.

 

[<Nexus>]

Two questions:

1. Is it really good that some corp buildings replace regular ones? Gives me a "massed up" feeling.
2. Is it really good that Guilds work as corporations? Wouldn't it be better if they were just regular buildings tied to Guilds civic?

 

[aggri1]

Two questions:

1. Is it really good that some corp buildings replace regular ones? Gives me a "massed up" feeling.
2. Is it really good that Guilds work as corporations? Wouldn't it be better if they were just regular buildings tied to Guilds civic?

1. My opinion is that it's not good. It does feel messy and inconsistent to me, and results in those weird and complicated flat bonuses on just a few corp' buildings.
2. I like that idea also.
Cheers, A.

 

[Vokarya]

I want Corporate Stores to replace appropriate buildings if possible. Mostly it's because I adore building links and want to keep the number of active buildings at any one time under control. Also, I think it rewards you for having corporations by sending an Executive to a newly-founded or newly-conquered city and spreading its corporation. Then you can build the Corporate Store and get two buildings at once.

The flat bonuses could be subsumed into the % bonuses if we can find a good balance point. For example, Mobby Meats Store currently gets +4% food per resource it has access to, and +1 food per resource inherited from Butchery. If we raise that to 6%, then we wouldn't need the flat +1.

 

[aggri1]

I want Corporate Stores to replace appropriate buildings if possible. ...

The flat bonuses could be subsumed into the % bonuses if we can find a good balance point. For example, Mobby Meats Store currently gets +4% food per resource it has access to, and +1 food per resource inherited from Butchery. If we raise that to 6%, then we wouldn't need the flat +1.

That's not always true, and it's always a problem every time a building chain converts from an early building which provides a flat bonus to a later one which provides a percentage bonus.

The percentage bonus will not help small cities with low food incomes nearly as much as the flat bonus offered by the Butchery. If you want to argue that by the time Mobby's is available there are no small cities, that's a different issue and a proposition with which I would disagree. To me the simpler and more obvious solution is to have the Butchery upgrade to a Supermarket or other non-corporation building which can more easily incorporate the various flat bonuses. I have no problem with a Supermarket replacing Butchery & Bakery & etc... and thereby incorporating a whole range of food and commerce bonuses, which achieves your desire to reduce the number of available buildings; and this would simultaneously avoid the impossibility of making a percentage bonus always be a better replacement for a flat bonus. Then the corporation store can be a clean and consistent simple percentage modifier.

Cheers,
A.