Hard Times from Monarch to Emporer

[Gryman]

I have been playing Civ for some time now and consider myself a fairly hardened veteran of the game. I have read many threads on the site but this is my first time starting one myself.

I am to the point where I can skate through most games on monarch with little resistance. Emporer, on the other hand, is very difficult unless I am on a small map with few AI.

In my latest game I was started with Julius Ceasar on normal size continent map with 6 AI (vanilla). Seemed like an easy challange considering the power of the Roman UU for some early warmongering to expand my empire. I soon discover my neighbors (Monty & Khan) and considered redrawing at this point. I figured even if I could somehow survive the Bloodbath of the continent that another more peaceful continent would run away with the tech lead. However, I did suck it up and went to work on building my army for some early warfare.

This is where my problems begin on emporer, I always am way behind on the power graph regardless of the size of my army. After building what I felt would be a respectable force and placing them ALL on Khan's border for attack, Monty declared on me! Luckily, he had a poor jungle start and I was able to a couple defenders while my army made its way to fight off the attack. I didn't want a war with Monty because his land was all garbage and Khan was getting very strong! I arranged peace in just a few turns then conquered Khan's capital w/ pyramids as well as another city.

While rebuilding my economy Mansu shows up while I am still researching compass, but I manage to win the race to liberalism in 1360 to grab Astronomy. Again I am at war with Khan and have two more of his cities captured. I am looking in very good shape when Monty again declares war while my army is halfway across the continent.

I'm not sure what I could have done to prevent the blindside attacks from monty. I adopted his religion as soon as I could and even gifted him several techs and resources. I am running first in score and teching very quickly mostly by specialists, however, regardless of the fact that I have ravaged Khan the graph is still showing him to have more power than me. I even think my army would stand to knock out Monty if it were in place but the graph is showing me to be very weak compared to him. I know the power graph has a lot to do with AI declaring war.

I suppose my weak power could be a result of having city garissons of few and outdated units. I have never garissoned cities much more than leaving one defender behind while my stack continues along the war path. For those playing on emporer, what does your typical garisson look like along your cultural borders? Does an updated defensive garrison help much in improving your overall power rating? I am tired of being teamed up on by AI as a result of a low power rating. Is this a fact of playing on Emporer, an error in my use of garrison troops or just a bad scenario w/ two trigger happy civs?

I will upload a save from after liberalism when I figure out how.

 

[shadow2k]

From Emperor on up, you'll always be way down in the power ratings early on. It's due to how it's calculated.

The Power Graph is entirely dependent upon one thing...Soldiers. Not units...Soldiers, as in what's listed in the F8 screen. And here's how that's determined:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php

Soldiers- This has been the most intensive and by far the longest to research, as there are many factors that contribute to this number. Firstly it has no bearing on the total units you have in fact you could have zero units but show 100000+ soldiers in the demo screen, you will see how in a second.
Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
1pop = 0 soldiers
2pop= 1000
3pop= 1000
4pop= 2000
5pop= 2000
6pop= 3000 and so on.

Factor 2- Technologies. Discovering some technologies (mostly military but not exclusively) gives you extra soldiers. I have to say some of them struck me as a little strange, like Military tradition gives you zero but hunting gives you 2000, but I’m not here to argue about that. Here is the list of techs that give you soldiers. If they are not listed then they give zero soldiers.

2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 soldiers- Guilds, Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 soldiers- Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry
12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling

Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders. Like discovering some technologies, build certain improvements and wonders will increase the amount of soldiers you have on the demo screen. In this case you amount added for each improvement. For example you get 2000 soldiers for each wall you build, so if you have 5 walls, you have an extra 10000 soldiers. With wonders that give you soldiers, you can only build one so you only get that bonus once. Here is the list of what you get for each improvement. Improvements that don’t give soldiers are not listed.

2000 soldiers- Walls, Castles, Dry dock, Forge, Factory
4000 soldiers- Barracks, Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point

Factor 4- Units. Finally each unit type has a different amount of soldiers attached to it, so a warrior contributes 1000 soldiers, while a Swordsman is 3000 soldiers. Interestingly enough a units experience points has no bearing on the amount of soldiers it equates to. Units such as scouts, workers missionaries and spies contribute zero soldiers to the demo screen. Here is the full list of what you get for each unit;

1000 soldiers – Warrior, Quechua
2000 soldiers – Axeman, Spearman, Archer, Chariot, Galley
3000 soldiers – Swordsman, Phalanx, Skirmisher, War Chariot, Immortal, Horse Archer, Catapult, Caravel
4000 soldiers – Jaguar, Praetorian, Maceman, Pikeman, Longbowman, Crossbowman, Keshik, War Elephant, Galleon
5000 soldiers – Samurai, Cho-Ko-Nu,
6000 soldiers – Musketman, Knight, Frigate, Ironclad, Transport,
8000 soldiers – Musketeer, Camel Archer, Conquistador, Cannon, Destroyer, Submarine
10000 soldiers – Rifleman, Grenadier, Machine Gun, Carrier
12000 soldiers – Redcoat, Cavalry, Battleship
15000 soldiers – Cossack, Fighter, Jet Fighter, Bomber
16000 soldiers – Infantry
18000 soldiers – Marine
20000 soldiers – SAM Infantry, Gunship, Artillery, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers – Navy SEAL
25000 soldiers – Tank
30000 soldiers – Panzer, Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers – Modern Armor, ICBM

As you can see, trying to use the Power Graph to determine the strength of someone's army can be very misleading. On higher levels, you have lower happy/healthy caps, so your cities are very small. The AI, on the other hand (especially with 2.08), can grow it's cities very large, giving it a big lead right there alone. They also can research techs faster, and will get points for some of them...even some that have nothing to do with military, like Alphabet. They'll build barracks in most of their cities, where you and I will not build them in our commerce cities. The AI will build walls and castles, while most players never even consider them. About the only thing that is actually relevant is that the AI gets cheap upgrades, and will upgrade their warriors to axes, etc...where players like myself will leave warriors on garrison dute on backline cities because it's simply not worth it to upgrade them.

Really, the power graph is pretty worthless. What's worse is that the AI is so dependant on it, but it really gives them a false sense of security. That's often why they attack when in reality, they have no business starting a war with anyone. You just have to be more prepared for an invasion, and realize that you are probably going to have to give in to more demands early on at higher levels...which is key to keeping some AI's off your back.

I really don't worry much about the power graph. I just expect to get declared on, and build a few more troops. I normally keep an Axe + Chariot in all my border cities. If I know my neighbor has Horses, I'll stick a couple Spears in between the cities...if not, I'll just stick and extra Axe between them. And then I'll stick my invasion force closest to the place I feel is most likely to get attacked.

There's really nothing you can do about being behind in the Power Graph early, just due to the way it works. AI gets too many bonuses to make up for. So you just need to watch for signs that you might be someone's next target, and find out what's coming where before it gets there. Sentry Chariots patrolling the border, sticking a troop up on that hill so you can see into their city, ships to see what's in the coastal cities, religious spying...or heck, the easiest way...Open Borders if you can get 'em. The AI is pretty easy to read if you can see what it's doing.

I honestly prefer having the AI's declare on me at that level and above, because I don't take the diplo hit for the war. I'm normally going to attack every neighbor at some point or another anyway, I have no problem with them deciding the order for me.

 

[Ruler]

"I know the power graph has a lot to do with AI declaring war. "

Is that a fact and something what other people think too because I think that AI declares war because of resources or expanding. I hope to get an answer.

Because I play on Monarch I consider myself peace-monger I'm always behind in powergrap but that doesn't mean I can't attack I almost always have an army to take couple AI's cities if I want and ask for peace later and build more if I want that's is enough for me. I think you shouldn't worry too much but I understand your way of thinking most people are not happy until they enough units to kill all AI if they want but that's not my way of thinking.

 

[shadow2k]

"I know the power graph has a lot to do with AI declaring war. "

Is that a fact and something what other people think too because I think that AI declares war because of resources or expanding. I hope to get an answer.

Because I play on Monarch I consider myself peace-monger I'm always behind in powergrap but that doesn't mean I can't attack I almost always have an army to take couple AI's cities if I want and ask for peace later and build more if I want that's is enough for me. I think you shouldn't worry too much but I understand your way of thinking most people are not happy until they enough units to kill all AI if they want but that's not my way of thinking.

The power graph isn't the only thing that determines whether an AI will declare war by any means. But it can play a large role. It's pretty easy to see this at work. I haven't see it too often on Monarch, but on Emperor and above it is pretty common to see an AI refuse to declare war on another AI because they "fear their military might". That's the AI using the power graph to determine that the other civs power is too much for them to handle. In the same respect, it's more likely to decide war is a good idea if they see your power rating is low. Try playing a game without building any military...you'll constantly have to give in to demands to survive, and even that may not be enough. They'll be more likely to declare, because your army looks weak to them.

The AI doesn't think like you and I do. It doesn't see that city with the marble, and decide it wants to take it from you. It's all about numbers for a computer. How many +/- on the diplo front you have with them. How close you are to them. How many more soldiers they have than you. How many troops are in which city can determine where they will attack first. When they actually declare war might be determined by your borders expanding one tile too far, tripping the DOW...and you can see this type of thing happening when you see that their stack was actually somewhere else at the time, and they only run a couple horse archers into your territory to start the war.

The AI is pretty predictable, as long as you know what they're using to make their decisions.

 

[PMabey]

Thanks to Shadow2K's long, and very helpful answers my long list of answers to the first post has been cut signifcantly. Diplomacy!!! A friendly civ wont attack you. Ever. Its in the XML files if someone cares to disagree. Monty, Alex, Shaka etc are all idiots who will look at the stupid power graph and attack you 4 no apparent reason. Accept it (for now at least) and be ready.

 

[Adino]

A friendly civ wont attack, ever? I am just starting to play on emperor lvl so every example will be given from monarch, I dont know how diffrent the diplomacy is on the two but my exp clearly dosn't go along with high power being good.

First my first monarch game, I started off placing my cities like I did back in Civ 1 and 2 next to their cities. I use to do this to form a boarder so I could colonize the interor at my own pace. However I bairly had them set up before The guy I was boxing out came in on me hard, our diplomatic relations were in the positive and I am sure my power rating was low.

Second my 3rd monarch game. I built away from the comp. I had only 5 cities and was alwase bottom of the powergraph. I boardered 3 neighbors 2 of which were the top dogs. (I think it was england and russia.) threwout the game I built a total of 2 archers for my military. Eventually I cluturally took over a boardering English town with my capital and doubled my military when I got 2 more archers. I won via space race and was never attacked. My diplo relations were only good with one guy, and unfortunatly he was kicked around alot and at end of game only had one city.


Third my 5th monarch game. I was friends with this guy (I think relations were like +5), was really far away from him, and had no power to speak of. Their was another guy right next to him. But he loaded all his troops up on boats and came after me first chance he got.

My experence with this game seems to indicate that power isn't the reason for the attack. Now they may check ahead of time and only attack if your power is under a certian amount, but the stupid comp dosen't nail you just because your value is insainly low.

That being said you guys have more Civ 4 exp than me so if you have well documented reasons for your statements I would defer to your judgement.

 

[AnitaGaribaldi]

I'm playing Monarch rigth now. I have won only one game on a tiny map. Once a "Pleased" civ declared war on me. I was OK for the first time in tech but I was the weakest civ in the Power Graph. If you are weak, even a friendly civ will declare war on you. If you are strong, they will fear you.

 

[oyzar]

this is another reason that specialist economy often can be superior to comerce economy more power cause of pop. Interesting. Isnt the point of monty that you should kill him on sight unless you have loads of ppl to beat up with him?

 

[Gryman]

this is another reason that specialist economy often can be superior to comerce economy more power cause of pop. Interesting. Isnt the point of monty that you should kill him on sight unless you have loads of ppl to beat up with him?

First off, that was very helpful information shadow. I remember seeing something similar to that before but I had forgotten that population played a role in the power rating. Because my happiness is still limited my pop is small compared to the AI. I should have definitely anticipated an attack but became pre-occupied with khan.

After going back several turns I was able to quickly whip out some defenders compliments of my largely farmed economy in order to allow my army some time to arrive. I am still learning the finer points of a combination farm specialist economy but I love the speed at which you can switch over from high science/tech production to hammer production along with whipping.

I would have killed monty first oyzar but he was located in thick jungle and wanted to give him some time to clear it. Additionally, Khan can also be a nuisance, he completed the pyramids and he was quickly pulling away from me in the early game.

After stepping back I have regained the offensive on Monty and again look to be in good shape to capture my continent. After that I think I might attempt a specialist driven space victory after a beeline to biology. Here is where I currently stand in the game.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/109592/Gryman_AD-1470.Civ4SavedGame

 

[shyuhe]

Monty is a general exception to the rule... He's a nut and will attack civs that have far greater power than him. It's why a lot of players try to eliminate him early since he's so unpredictable. Alex is also another warmonger who will attack if it looks like there's an opportunity. Both will mass stacks that are quite large if you let them be. Catherine is the one civ that can be bribed into attacking another civ that she is friendly with.

Also, once a civ gets "too much on his hands" and has decided to attack you, I don't think improving relations with that civ will avert war (the only way to not get attacked is to get somebody else to attack that civ first).