[GS] Has Japanese industry gone too far?

Sostratus

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As of the recent patch, the Japanese can combine the +2 from aqueducts, canals, and dams with their +1 district bonus, for a net of +3. 6 x 3 = 18. That's more than 15 - the maximum you can get from a Hansa.

How can it be done? First, you must forge your steel in the heart of Mt Fuji...
You start with the aqueduct triangle. (You can see an example or two of this in the guide in my sig, I'm working on one for regular IZs too!)
The bread and butter Aqueduct triangle leaves three open spaces around the center tile, requiring two of the remaining to be dams (which requires two separate river floodplains to meet in a specific way.) I've never seen 3 floodplains meet in one spot, maybe it's possible. How to get that last spot filled in? A canal. But that's not easy, because you have to have water in the right spot. I happened to notice a double floodplain, and then I realized the panama canal would fit in there... So +18's what you can get.

If you pulled out all the stops you could boost that tile to +54:c5production: production (craftsmen, modern era dark age card collectivization, etc.)

Disclaimer: there's oil under the northwest CH, for those keeping track of adjacency. Also, yes, if you later reveal strategic resources under those green districts you can get higher, but that's a random event.
 

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Nice! However, this is more to some skill and luck. The germans on the other hand can consistently crank up high lvl adjacency with the adjacency rules of the Hansa. It works in almost any terrain.
 
Nice! However, this is more to some skill and luck. The Germans on the other hand can consistently crank up high lvl adjacency with the adjacency rules of the Hansa. It works in almost any terrain.
Oh, absolutely. I didn't want to make the OP too long, but anytime Germany can build an aqueduct triangle, they can build a +15 Hansa if they so choose. No dams or canals needed. That's not nearly as uncommon as you would think. I am like, the biggest Hansa proponent of all time. (Why else would I spend so much time making the graphics for my guides?!)

Japan has +3 on 3 districts, but Germany has +2.5 on four, and one of those can be placed on any land tile. The bigger issue is that the best layouts for the IZs themselves dictate that you just can't use Aqueducts as your workhorse - so either you need dams or you need to play Germany. Plus, the Hansa's extra flexibility with all resources affords more breathing room. On top of that, Japan doesn't have any chances of catching Germany unless they fully surround their IZs with districts, and that takes a lot of pop- but Germany can drop unlimited AQ/canal/Dams, the Hansa, and the CH at population 1.
 
Plus Japan's unique factory gets more production.
 
Nice!

Hard to find the exact right setup. Although knowing how I play, I would have most of this set up and planned, and then pop iron or niter on one of the tiles to screw with it.
 
Hard to find the exact right setup. Although knowing how I play, I would have most of this set up and planned, and then pop iron or niter on one of the tiles to screw with it.

Finding the right river for the two dams isn't impossible, it's that in combination with the canal. I could have taken the easy way out and plopped a govt plaza instead of a canal, for +17. But why would I choose to live like a serf when I could be an Adjacency Shogun with the full +18?

I actually have started a rule where I won't begin planning anything until I've unlocked horse+iron visibility. Any early expansion that doesn't need a canal will be settled and plopped down before niter is revealed. The problem with niter is that it only shows up on flat land, which makes it a primary canal destroyer. Once I get niter than it's canal planning time since coal to my knowledge is only on hills, and most of the big build outs are on floodplains for the dams - ergo, flat as Kansas. But that's a huge chunk of the building phase between niter and coal, you can get a lot done. You actually want to have built on those resources because it's more adj for the IZs!
 
Played my game with Japan. I think Japan is superior to Germany significantly now.
Meiji Restoration is one of the strongest civ abilities in the game. Each district you place is potentially +6 yield to specialty districts. That's just mad.

If you don't resort to extreme tactics then I think Japan is essentially "Germany with a lower skill cap and better at other districts". But as I mentioned in a previous post, Germany has HUGE advantages in placement when you don't have dams or canals available, (and often even when you do,) which is a lot of the time (it's a lot easier for Germany to achieve +10, or numbers over 10) and their ramp up time is absurdly fast because if you control for number of districts placed, germany is beating Japan by miles. Assuming you exploit the Hansa to the hilt, the Japanese only catch up once you've surrounded the IZs with districts, which is modern or atomic era at best.

But I do concede that Japan really kills it with things like getting +4 or more CHs or big numbers on harbors, both prime economic abilities. For Culture and Science to me, the gap isn't in practice as big since you're probably gonna use mountains, geothermal, and wonders for those two districts in the first place, and again you need to build lots of districts first to really get good campuses in otherwise bad spots. I do think the red card is usually better than the coastal bonus. The electronics factory is very nice. Samurai >> Uboat IMO, just because they upgrade right to muskets. Having a medieval melee unit is just so good in so many ways. Rip Landesknecht.
 
Japan is also nice because they have 3 districts at half price. It's basically the equivalent of having 2.5 unique districts, and because they rely so heavy on that adjacency, it's also a huge bonus because you don't have to worry about terrain.

Like, don't start near mountains? So what, you can still get great holy sites and campuses. No rivers? Commerce hubs can still be useful. No Wonders? You have the best theatre squares anyways. You can play agnostic of terrain and easily get +3 or more on every district you place.
 
Like, don't start near mountains? So what, you can still get great holy sites and campuses. No rivers? Commerce hubs can still be useful. No Wonders? You have the best theatre squares anyways. You can play agnostic of terrain and easily get +3 or more on every district you place
I find their bigger issue in my recent japan games has been getting the pop for the districts early enough. They have great midgame game potential though. Just getting +3 harbors for being next to a city center is pretty big league.
the gov't plaza is also a great +2 for everyone party pack. I really like Japan. It's always been a flexible, strong, if not rush-meta, pick.
 
big numbers on harbors, both prime economic abilities

Harbors are also great for industry. With Japan, having the CC-HD-CD triangle is +4, plus a resource and another district it's +6, which is 6 hammers with the Shipyard, 12 with the double adjacency, and becomes +24 with Reyna. Or even more...

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Harbors are also great for industry. With Japan, having the CC-HD-CD triangle is +4, plus a resource and another district it's +6, which is 6 hammers with the Shipyard, 12 with the double adjacency, and becomes +24 with Reyna. Or even more...
I thought Reyna gave +100% of the base adjacency. IE, +7 base, +7 from naval tradition, +7 from reyna.
So how does Yokohama add up to 30? shouldn't it be 21?
 
@Sostratus I love all this research and analysis on IZs. I'm really enjoying your threads.

What do you think of Netherlands, Scotland, and the new and improved England? Can these civs reasonably keep up?
 
I'm really enjoying your threads.
:c5happy: I live only to serve :c5happy:
What do you think of Netherlands, Scotland, and the new and improved England? Can these civs reasonably keep up?
So it's a bit murky but there's really three camps.
Germany & Japan
The Dutch, England (Glorious Revolution represent)
Literally Everyone Else (honorable mentions: Rome, Aztec, china)

So basically the name of the game is aqueducts. Housing? Who cares about that? People can squeeze turnips. Those Aqueducts are pumping water straight into the blast furnaces.
So the best current way to boost IZs is to put them near aqueducts. Usually some scenario where you make a diamond out of 2 AQ and 2 IZ, that's an automatic +5 for both.
This is a nice pickup for Rome, as they were probably gonna build Baths anyways. The problem with your Khmer and Inca is that they want to put farms next to their AQ, and using them on IZs like that cuts into it.
Because of dams, this makes floodplains extra desirable. You may realize that AQs and Dams both synergize extremely well with rivers. This is why the dutch are so good. They almost always get the +2 pickup for river on their IZs, which is a big deal. Instead of 5-6 they get 7-8. Plus just being near rivers in the first place gets it extended to their campus and TS too. And they get +50%:c5production: towards dams. Not bad at all.
Scotland's +5-10% modifier is certainly nice, but they have no extra factory yield or way to boosted their IZ adjacency, so they have sunk a good bit. As an example, if you have a +6 IZ, that's gonna add up to 33 production with all the buildings. 33*1.1 = 36.3. But if you have a +8 IZ, that's already 41 production without the need for high amenities. So ecstatic scots are gonna need to be looking at ~60prod cities to even out with +0 amenity dutchies.

Why do I rank england with the dutch? because they not only get the +4 factory, but they also have quadruple effective military engineers. What separates them from "everyone else tier" is how fast they can bolt together green districts. If you hustle science, you can keep expanding to good spots at the point which it'll be too expensive in those new cities to get green districts out quick; thus, having a ME support squadron is critical. Getting a start bias for iron and coal, which are extremly effective tiles for boosting an IZ (+1.5 for the mine and resource together) and they have a distinct edge. England is a lot more fit for purpose too with the gobs of coal they get.

Aztecs can boost all districts and are generally unfair, but their IZs have no qualitative edge. China has the one upside of getting canals basically at the start of the game, so they can build them super cheap and utilize some strategies involving canals. (For example, it's not that uncommon to find a floodplain river dumping into the sea where you can make a ring of City Center - Canal - AQ - Dam, and drop an IZ in the middle. China can leverage that canal boost right away.)

Then you have Japan. As this thread is a testament too, in the right terrain they can go nuts. Their AQ diamond is a natural +7, extending to +9 if they fill in the districts. They benefit more the more green districts you can utilize. And obviously this also extends to helping out all their other districts too.

Germany is like japan, but aggressively modified. The problem Japan has is that their super combines really only work on select rivers. When you have situations like mountains or oases, where you can't form an AQ diamond or better, you're kind of SOL: you're looking at an IZ surrounded by maybe 6 districts if there's no terrain issues, with an AQ, for a total of +8. Remember: the best way to boost your IZs is to have a +2 district touch multiple IZs at once. This is actually a huge restriction. If you look in my updated Hansa guide, you will see an example of a big 4 city cluster. See how the AQs are in the corners of that cluster instead of the center? Yeah, so that is impossible for Japan to utilize. Germany can just activate their Hansa Infinity Stone, and use CHs as the districts connecting all the IZs, leaving the AQs as simple supporting districts. The ease at which you can get +10:c5production: on a Hansa is simply stupid right now. (That banks up to 57 production already. The scots are in the dust.)

So IMO japan can situationally match or beat the Hansa, but Germany is just so much more flexible in the confines of real terrain, like how the dutch get a bonus just for doing what you should be doing, AND they can put together districts extremely quick like the Brits. Japan is still extremely good at production, though. Just look at the OP. Keep in mind that a 1 point difference in adjacency is 4 production total. Just the dutch river bonus can be twice as potent as a WotW factory's bonus.
 
I've amalgamated some of the info from these threads into an IZ guide (link in my signature.)
Hopefully our content and images will spur the players of the world to unite for a glorious adjacency revolution!
It's amazing to see what the fanatics on this board put together in their games.
 
According to my imagination the highest possible industrial zone adjacency goes to japan with a 0.5 advantage against german industrial zones by having the green districts over strategic resources now i dont know whether strategics can spawn in floodplains i hope so because if not then the plan is a bit hampered
 
What do you think of Netherlands, Scotland, and the new and improved England? Can these civs reasonably keep up?

England is ahead thanks to Military Engineers. The main problem with this setup is that Dams are very expensive, and also is the reason why Japan isn't as good as Germany (added on to the fact that Hansas are also half priced and don't take a space) so the ROI isn't anywhere near as good as it seems. The other thing is that England's all t3s benefit so that's unique to them. Netherlands are also good since they produce dams faster. I guess Gaul could fit in here? I dunno.

Scotland is a meme at this point, and probably one of the worst civs atm given many of the weak ones were boosted. I would probably say they are bottom 3, along with Canada and Georgia but at least these two civs have their niche. Scotland is good at precisely nothing. Anything they can do can be done with another civ and better.
 
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