Have a Navy that meens something...

The marines are a navy unit. They were founded in the 17th century. To increse the value of the navy, you could connect the unit "Marine" to the invention of Militairy Tradition or Navigation. He would be as strong as an Cavalry, but with movement 1 and able to attack from a sea-square. A battle between to frigates will be influanced by the amount of marines loaded (max of 4 units per frigate).
They can be transported on Frigates and be used to control or increase your colonised land and guard your trade routes/ships.
When you reach Replaceble Parts, you can upgrade it to the current marine unit, with the difference that it can also be transported on a war-ship.
When you reserached Stealth and Espionage, you will be able to upgrade the unit to a Seal/SAS/etc unit.
An elite marine can become a leader "Admiral" and you can build a fleet of warships ,like the land based Army.
 
Hey all, newbie here :)

I like all your ideas for oil rigs and the return to CTP's trade system. Perhaps the oil rigs would be fairly productive but also create a good deal of pollution?

Also, I think it would be pretty cool to have the option (option - not requirement) to name each of your ships once they are built. So if you're the British, you could name your new destroyer the HMS 'Invincible' or whatever you'd like.

Another idea is perhaps early in the game, say in the equivalent of real-world 1500s or something, or during a period where your cities have a habit of rebelling, there is the chance that isolated ships alone in the sea would mutiny. May be a bit of a pain, though.
 
ummm I think you can name units already...cant you? and pollution for sea tiles on offshore rigs would meen workers out on sea...
 
Aye, naming units is already an option in C3C :)
/me goes of to watch Hornblower, for inspiration. ;)
 
At the risk of repeating myself (I'm pretty sure I mentioned some of this stuff elsewhere in the Civ4 thread) my ideas on seas/oceans are:

1. Fishing should be done by a fishing fleet. This fleet should have to go where the fish are (like George's Banks). The civ or city (whichever way is feasable for Firaxis) would receive the food and money based on the fleet being able to establish a colony where the fish are. The fisheries should be attackable--but only with an act of war! Wars were, actually, proposed over fishing rights. The fishing colonies should be tradeable (to reflect wartime gains, etc) and capturable.

2. Submarines need to be invisible. Currently submarines, destroyers, nuke subs and (possibly) cruisers/aegis cruisers can see them. This makes subs almost useless (except as stealth attackers). Submarines should have a special bombard capability. When a hostile ship enters a sub's square the sub should get one free bombard and then escape to an unoccupied, neighboring square. If the hostile ship enters the square successfully and follows to the square that the sub jumped to then the sub is 'seen' and attackable in the routine way.

2.a. Subs can wolfpack in a square, after the first jumps, if a hostile ship still attempts to enter the square, the next sub will attack it and 'jump'.

2.b. A new unit, the ASW plane, will be able to spot submarines. The only way it will spot them is by doing recon on the exact square that contains the sub(s).

2.c. Subs should have at least enough firepower with their bombard to sink a regular ship (especially a transport). In other words, whichever way bombard is done, the sub needs to be able to sink its prey. In Civ3 terms this means that the sub would need to be able to cause 3hp of damage and must have lethal bombard. (What the bombing strength should be is play-testable).

2d. If a destroyer is the target (or accompanying the target) of a sub bombard and the fleet moves into the square (i.e. there are no more subs/surface ships in the square) the destroyer (and only a destroyer!) should be able to see where the sub went. If an ASW is then sent to the square, other units would also see the sub. The sub would be able to be attacked by the destroyer, however, the destroyer would not know if there were hidden submarines in the square that the 'seen' sub jumped to, so this would be a potential risk.

2e. Submarines should be invulnerable to shore bombardment.

3. Ships need to move much faster in the modern age. One suggestion is to make all water tiles cost 2 and then make certain ships (as the tech gets better) ignore terrain costs. This is currently doable in the editor, but should be standard practice.

4. All non-nuke, non-sail ships should need resupply of fuel. If the US Pacific fleet had been stationed in San Diego instead of Pearl Harbor, the Japanese might never have attacked. If they did attack, they would have expected to lose a lot of ships to US bombers stationed in other cities. In addition, although some excursions were sent to the Japanese home islands early (the Doolitle raid is a prime example), very few were sent before closer islands were held. Sending along a fuel ship is a risky proposition.

In this light, fuel ships should be created, and if they are sunk, all ships relying on the ship should have a limited movement before they stop and have to be refueled (by another fuel ship or in port).

5. Aircraft must, I SAY MUST, be able to intercept ships. Basically aircraft and subs need a readiness flag.

a. Peace: Unit is seen if another civ tries to move into its square.

b. Limited engagement: attack only known hostile forces. Subs would be unseen unless a unit tried to move into their square. If the moving ship is hostile (i.e. the owning country is at war with the sub's nation) then the sub attacks with the bombard. If the moving ship is friendly or neutral the sub would be 'seen' by this nation. There is a 10% chance that a submarine will mistake a neutral ship for a hostile one and attack it by mistake. This will cause the AI owning nations to have a 10 or 20 turn attitude hit (which could cause a DOW).

c. Unrestricted Submarine Warfare: attack any non-friendly/allied ship. The sub will attack any ship that is not of an allied nation.

6. For aircraft: similar to sub warfare except that the chance of attacking a neutral in b above would be very small or non-existant (maybe 1%).

a. Aircraft that are set for interception would have a %chance to find an enemy fleet sailing into their waters (note that enemy fleet in b above is defined as not at war at the beginning of the turn). If an enemy fleet is found all aircraft that are set for intercept will attack the enemy fleet. If the enemy have aircraft set for "Air Superiority" they will try to destroy those trying for the fleet.

b. If the fleet survives the first onslaught and continues on, the same thing happens in the next square. If spotted, the fleet is again attacked by all intercepting aircraft.

This continues until either the fleet is gone, the intercepting aircraft are gone, or the fleet is no longer moving in range of the aircraft.

c. "Air superiority" needs to be changed so that counter-interception is taken into account. In other words, if A is planning an attack on B, A can designate (in his turn) some air units for "Air superiority". Next, A sends aircraft/ships into B's interception range. If B has set up stuff for "air superiority" or "interception" then A's air superiority and B's air superiority and interceptors fight it out. After all this is done, then a. and b. above commence.

d. Range on an aircraft carrier would be less than on a land base. Otherwise, the interception, air superiority, and such will all be the same.

e. No trade can be done with neutrals doing the shipping if Unrestricted Sub Warfare (or its equivalent with aircraft) is declared.

7. Merchant marine/maritime trade systems must exist. Probably the best way to do this is to have an abstract trade route/unit/ship/line that can be built and will go from friendly ports to receiving ports, etc. The route would be allowed to have combat units added to it in order to protect the shipments.

a. A unit traveling with a route would be, in effect, unuseable for any other duty until taken off the route.

b. The unit would automatically defend the merchants from pirates/bandits/enemy units.

c. The unit would fight the same way as any other unit, but would be unfortified.

d. More than one unit could be added to a route.

e. Routes that cross sea lanes would have to have ships built for them and would have to have a capacity limit. Building more 'routes' would increase the capacity. These routes could carry various items, including units, provided that the destination was a friendly spot (i.e. you could not ship units to a neutral port, you could ship them to an allied port).

f. Routes would take a finite amount of turns to reach destination. For example, if Civ A sets up a silk trade with Civ B and B is 20 squares away then it might take two turns for the silks to begin arriving. If Civ C sends privateers to steal the silks, he would have to figure out (without it being obvious) where the route was. Once he starts pillaging the silks, A would know this and could assign a Frigate or 10 to protect the silk route. If Civ C is still pillaging the route, A's Frigate(s) would arrive within 1 to 2 turns (depending on whether or not C is within the first 10 squares or the last 10 squares) and fight it out.

The same would be true with 'modern' transportation. Submarines could attack routes. In their case, they would actually destroy units (not capture the goods). This would mean that the civ supplying the ships would have to create more 'Route' Ships (similar to what the US did in WWII).

When a trade deal is made, the deal would include who is responsible for maintaining the route (i.e. who's ships will carry the goods). If the route is destroyed, then both civs could renegotiate who supplies the ships. The deal is NOT considered busted just because the route was interupted, it is considered to be interupted. The total # of turns would still need to be honored. If neither side is capable of continuing the route, then the deal is busted.

Note that since each 'route' ship carries a fixed amount, there are very good reasons to create lots of these things. Of course, you would have to maintain your merchant fleet, just as you have to maintain your combat fleet. Transports, as a consequence, would usually only be used for hostile action--as was nearly always the case.

g. Routes would be specified by the responsible Civ. Thus a route could be made longer in order to give it more protection and make it more difficult for an enemy to cause problems.

8. The AI must not have knowledge of routes and submarines. This would completely unbalance the game and make this entire system unuseable.
 
Well, as far as marines go, I think they should be strong, but any forifications on the land/ city would be doubled, reflecting marines inability to attack fortified positions (as shown in D-Day, well SOME landings were OK, but others failed catastrophically).
 
While we're on the subject of marines....

Conquests improved marines by giving them a x2 attack when attacking from sea. That seems blatantly silly to me, that any unit would do better when making an amphibious assault than it would when attacking from land. In RL, marines are trained to make amphibious assaults if necessary, but the first order of business is always to establish a beachhead so you can bring more forces ashore more safely. If given the choice between making an amphibious assault or unloading in a friendly port and then attacking by land, the latter is the much smarter choice.

This is what I would prefer to see: any unit (or maybe just any foot unit?)can make an amphibious assault, but does so at a 50% attack penalty. Then, marines (and viking berserks, any any other units that specialize in amphibious warfare) get to attack from sea as normal, instead of at a penalty. So they essentially still get the x2 bonus (relative to other, non-marine units) but now that bonus serves make them as good as they are on land, instead of twice as good.

Also, if a greater variety of units could attack from sea (albeit at a penalty) then it would eliminate the exploit of covering your cost with old, weak units to prevent enemy landing, and would make 1-tile island cities attackable (by civs other than the vikings) before the modern age.
 
judgement's ideas on Marines and Berserkers is the best I have seen so far. I would add one more caveat. Units attacking a fortified position (i.e. a fortress or city) from the sea would give the defenders fortification a +50% bonus. This would be true regardless of whether it was standard units or marines. This would reflect the idea that it was seldom that any commander would actually attempt to attack the 'hardest' part of a defense from the sea. I say +50% because currently, a size 1-6 town has no defense bonus (unless a wall was built). With this rule, they would still get the 50% bonus.
 
yea I like the idea of marines...only thing about it is will people invest in marines when they can spend more time on a land invasion that seems more feasable?
 
Possibly. Especially if you make only certain squares invadeable. For instance, you could define that only desert, tundra, floodplains, plains and grassland can be assaulted from the sea by ordinary units (not too terribly unrealistic IMHO). This would give a much greater role to marines, since once you owned the terrain, you would no longer be assaulting it and therefore could land the rest of your forces.
 
I think what needs to be done re: the navy in civ4 is improving the AI's grasp of how to use it in coordination with a naval invasion. I don't think they need any more bonuses to build a larger navy (along the lines of how the system of difficulty is done now...ai civ's get to build an improvement with less shields), what I think is that the AI needs to be taught how to use the navy especially in regards to combined arms. For instance if I'm playing a scenario on an archipelago map the AI is pathetic -- jeez what's with the random and obvious raids (oh a whole three cavalry that's going to destroy me)? What needs to be instituted is the ability for them to launch a diversionary raid and follow that up with a major one and allow support ships like battleships, cruisers etc... bombard enemy positions. And when they do this they need to protect their Carrier's (and use them) and their transports with decent naval units.

I'm also in favour of the basic idea of having great sea leaders i.e.: Admirals. I think another thing that should be added in civ4 is the ability to build a naval base on an unused tile like the ability to build an air base already exists. I think another thing that can be done is allowing you to build a naval base in allied territory - if they agree. To expand upon that the idea of building a naval base in hostile territory if you win a war vs. another civ sort of like how the Soviet Union did in Finland after the Russo-Finnish war of 1939-1940 (and then after ww2) should be explored.
 
one_man_assault said:
Come on now lets face it...you could have the biggest navy in your CIV3 games and it doesn’t mean squaaaaattttt. 4 transports 10 battleships and maybe 2 carriers and I’m good for the rest of the game (and I play Emperor.) The British Empire ruled the world for a good Century and a half by the cannons of a Frigate or Battleship. How do you think the US Military is so successful? Air Power is what brings the bad guys down but Air Power is nothing unless you got a Navy.

What I suggest is simple. Have shipping routes were ship pass through (thus giving the navy a reason to be invested in a la Civ CTP I think). Have trade Items on an ocean (oil, pearls) that can only be secured buy having a ship fortified over it or having something like an offshore oilrig. Show the dominance of a Navy Early buy increasing its movement points dramatically. Have it be Able to attack 2 squares away (thus making it harder for sea units to slip by when trying to invade a certain point) and able to have lethal bombard. But Make them expensive as a way to promote investment in a navy that can rule the seas. I’m guessing you can do most of this with the editor and if someone really wanted to try the stuff that’s feasible now it would probably yield an enjoyable experience (call me lazy or incompetent but no way I’m nearing that editor).


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I was also thinking that the Carrier cost more but could house 10 ships, and have modern day light cruisers be like floating cruise missles (but dont die when you use them) but be very low in defense.

PLEASE PLEASE game designers listen to this person! What's the fun of playing Carthage or England etc.. when navies don't mean squat. Please add some sort or trade routes or make more effective and powerfull blockaides and please increase sea movement dramatically.
 
andrewgprv said:
PLEASE PLEASE game designers listen to this person! What's the fun of playing Carthage or England etc.. when navies don't mean squat.
They found cocaine in the hair of Egyptian mummies and cocaine comes from South America? What does that mean?............ Somebody most have build the lighthouse in 4000BC :crazyeye:
 
Well it's the AI as some have mentioned already. AI needs massive improvement in naval combat manoeuvres.
 
Yes thats also true but even with improved AI With the system currently in place its still fairly easy to pick off ships (I had RR and moved 9 artillery and 2 bombers that happened to be in range pick off 4 battle ships and 2 transports fairly easily well along with my iron clads that picked them off) what the game needs is battle ships with massive defense in comparison to everything else during its hay day like 20 with a slight chance of a bombardment connecting (I meen how does a measly peice of artillery have the accuracy to take a battleship to 2 measly hit points) and have it but have it be suseptable to lethal bombardment by a more accurate radar artillery and stealth bomber/fighter jets during modern age. that way its foolish to stop an invasion with bombardment in the pre-modern era and foolish to invade an area during the modern era with out clearing the place with long range cruisers and Air Power curtesy of the aircraft carriers
 
Maybe getting a little off the topic here... but I think carriers are massively underpowered and unprotected in civ3. Carriers are the key to modern naval power projection, and are thus protected very well by various other surface units. I think the AEGIS cruiser is a pretty good start with its sub-detection ability, but other units are severely lacking. Carrier battle groups traditionally control vast areas of the ocean's surface, and having a carrier that can only see a couple of spaces in either direction doesn't make any sense. The radar systems of the AEGIS cruiser in real life combined with AWACS aircraft give carriers massive "bubbles" of control, hundreds of miles in diameter. I think including a more realistic zone of control for carriers, as well as improving their support units would be ideal. Maybe make the AEGIS cruiser an air-defense unit, and let more modern frigates cover the ASW duties. I don't like having to keep a battleship running around with my carrier groups for protection because that extra movement point makes it a pain in the rear, and I also don't like having to tie up such massive bombardment power in a defensive role. I know I could just as easily use a couple of destroyers as escorts, but somehow I don't feel as safe. I just love those big 16-inch guns! I'm weird like that.
 
I think the game needs to improve the A1 naval abilities and second it needs to improve the earlier sailing ships. That part of the game can be much more developed.
 
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