Have They (Firaxis) acknowledged anything to anyone?

[Slax]

This is America (at least here where I am (and Firaxis)). Anyone can sue for any reason if you have the money to pursue it. If his code reverse engineered DirectX to do its thing (and from his description it does), they would be open to a lawsuit from Microsoft if they used it.

Does that mean that Firaxis may not have the legal right to do some of the programming Hark has done? In other words, is Hark's patch illegal in the eyes of Microsoft, but might be possibly better than what Firaxis can legaly do?

 

[alexti2]

This is America (at least here where I am (and Firaxis)). Anyone can sue for any reason if you have the money to pursue it. If his code reverse engineered DirectX to do its thing (and from his description it does), they would be open to a lawsuit from Microsoft if they used it.

Where did you find such description? You don't need to reverse engineer DirectX to use it. The documentation is publicly available. Microsoft actually encourages people to use DirectX. In USA it may probably be argued that Harkonnen's patch reverse engineering Civ4, but if Firaxis buy it and use it themselves; can they get sued for reverse engineering their own product? That sounds crazy, but perhaps only a lawyer can give a clear answer...

 

[Harkonnen]

I did not reverse engineer anything... Only profiled, i.e. made measurements like amount of equal primitives per frame, number of DEFAULT/MANAGED primitives, etc...

So far Firaxis and MS (and any other company) may start suing ATi / nVidia for performing same "reverse engineering" whenever they release new drivers which fix bugs within games...

 

[warpstorm]

I am sorry for implying that you did anything illegal. AFAIK, you did not. I was just pointing out that big companies, for example, can (and do) sue people (and other corporations) for infringing on their (perceived) IP all the time.

 

[EdCase]

This is America (at least here where I am (and Firaxis)). Anyone can sue for any reason if you have the money to pursue it. If his code reverse engineered DirectX to do its thing (and from his description it does), they would be open to a lawsuit from Microsoft if they used it.

That is probably the most paranoid statement I've ever seen. Nothing was reverse engineered. He used Direct X as MS themselves ask people to.
And to have reverse engineered the game he would have had to recompile the engine. :sheesh:

 

[Harkonnen]

warpstorm
I don't mean you have implied that. Just provided Firaxis is going to read through this thread, this statement was primarily for them... Preparing the ground... as user-friendly version of the fix is almost there

EdCase
I would be happy to have hacking skill and law power to have the ability of reverse engineering civ4 just not to engineer it back from the original code

When I freelanced, I had a rule "do not get into fixing code written by someone if it needs fixes every 10 lines". I mean such things are usually faster / more stable to rewrite from the scratch. Unfortunately, this appears to be the case with civ4 engine part. I don't mean GameBryo (3D) / ScaleForm (2D) statically linked code. I mean the way these sub-systems being used.

 

[warpstorm]

Reverse engineering of software can be accomplished by various methods. The three main groups of software reverse engineering are:

1. Analysis through observation of information exchange, most prevalent in protocol reverse engineering, which involve using bus analyzers and packet sniffers for example for listening into a computer bus or computer network connection, revealing the traffic data underneath. Behaviour on the bus or network can then be analyzed for producing a stand-alone implementation that mimics the same behaviour. This is especially good for reverse engineering of device drivers.
2. Disassembly using a disassembler, meaning the raw machine language of the program is read and understood in its own terms, only with the aid of machine language mnemonics. This works on any computer program but can take quite some time, especially for someone not used to machine code.
3. Decompilation using a decompiler, a process that tries, with varying result, to recreate the source code in some high level language for a program only available in machine code.

EdCase, Profiling and capturing data fall into category 1. This usage is almost always legal.

 

[warpstorm]

"do not get into fixing code written by someone if it needs fixes every 10 lines". I mean such things are usually faster / more stable to rewrite from the scratch.

Having worked with much legacy code in my life, this is, unfortunately, often the case (I am not saying this is the case with Civ4).

 

[Harkonnen]

warpstorm and Firaxis (I don't mean that warpstorm works for Firaxis, just common reply)

About (1). This implies that both peers are proprietary pieces of software (e.g. client/server written by same company). In our case the server (DirectX) is not part of Firaxis code.

Also, the only reason for profiling was to see if I can eliminate enough duplicates, that is - if the patch will have noticable effect. The way these fixes are performed are totally civ4-independent. It's rather "hacking" into D3D, rather than "hacking" into civ4.

BTW, 'xFire' makes same hooks. ATI Tray Tools do. And I believe well-known FPS meter FRAPS also does. Any firewall software analyses traffic... any anti-virus software analyses files (and sometimes "reverse engineers" zipped content).

Anyway, I don't see why Firaxis can't treat my fix as they treat GameBryo engine for example (after corresponding agreement)... I doubt they are afraid of being sued by GameBryo creators for profiling their engine during developing game based on it

warpstorm
Having worked with much legacy code in my life, this is, unfortunately, often the case (I am not saying this is the case with Civ4).
I know this is usually the case. I mean that from both points of view:

1) Programmer (stability now and less pain later)

2) Manager (shorter deadline)

Rewriting is usually better. When it comes to change a few things - yes... but when changes render entire code different, you will inherit less problems making it different from your own (recreator's) ground.

 

[alexti2]

When I freelanced, I had a rule "do not get into fixing code written by someone if it needs fixes every 10 lines".

Perhaps you meant to say "10 fixes every line"?

 

[Harkonnen]

alexti2
I mean number of statements ('if' clauses, functions calls, 'for/while' loop conditions, etc...) which require changes. This does not affect comments and renaming variables, and it counts only for changes which improve speed algorithmically (that is, can't be optimized by compiler) and/or fix bugs.

 

[EdCase]

@Wapstorm
So what your saying here is, go with me here I'm just a poor modeler/animator,that observed behavior and reproduction of such using independent/new code is regarded as reverse engineering ?
If so thats sounds..well just wrong to me. With regard to its legality,I would say yes of course its legal after can you imagine this scenario?

"So you say the defendant has ripped off your programming?"
"Yes I do, even though their program doesn't contain any of my code and its written in a different language"
Its an unwinnable scenario.Whats more..............

I say Westwood for the win then.Because Dune 2 was the RTS all others are mere copies.

 

[Harkonnen]

EdCase
Oops... my nickname emerged from Dune2 too

 

[EdCase]

EdCase
Oops... my nickname emerged from Dune2 too

Nah! your nick came from the book

btw . nice work on your patch, I now have Harkonnen as a Great Engineer in my game

 

[Sorceresss]

Oops... my nickname emerged from Dune2 too

Because of your computer programming skills (and the content of some of your posts, above), I would rather label you as a :

MENTAT

 

[warpstorm]

@Wapstorm
So what your saying here is, go with me here I'm just a poor modeler/animator,that observed behavior and reproduction of such using independent/new code is regarded as reverse engineering ?
If so thats sounds..well just wrong to me. With regard to its legality,I would say yes of course its legal after can you imagine this scenario?

"So you say the defendant has ripped off your programming?"
"Yes I do, even though their program doesn't contain any of my code and its written in a different language"
Its an unwinnable scenario.Whats more..............

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. It is *usually* legal. As with most things, legality is judged by a judge (or a jury of people who couldn't figure out a way to get out of jury duty) and may not make common sense.

America is a very litigious society. Someone I know makes lawsuits for every slight real or imagined (he has a pre-payed lawyer account). He has made tens of thousands of dollars doing this so it is a real concern. It scares me to live near him.

 

[Bain]

It would be nice if they were a little more fan-centric ... you know, popped in from time to time and told us what they were working on or :gulp: actually had their own freaking forums.

forums.worldofwarcraft.com

VERY bad idea.

 

[perky_goth]

reverse engeneering is mostly legal, regardless of what EULAs say. the opposite would be like the ban to read or reviewing a minstakingly early realeased Harry Potter book. With enough money you can buy a winning lawsuit (à lá bnetd), but i believe fixing interoptability is explicitly permited. it's also common to see very similar games in the market (maybe not very big games, but still), and i haven't heard of a single case.
this unless you crack protections, then the ******** DMCA comes into play.
IANAL, not even american, just read american lawyers on slashdot.

having said that, firaxis would also be in trouble with their fans by suing someone who did their job, even if it's a short term hack.
on a more realistic scenario, i'm sure firaxis developers have read Harks description of his patch and don't really need to look at his code to implement a better designed solution, since they have the actual code of the game.

 

[onedreamer]

Originally Posted by warpus
...considering how little they spent on testing.

Did you locate some data which allows you to make that statement?

I'd bet he bought and played the game. That's a whole lot of data that allows such a statement...

 

[Sorceresss]

forums.worldofwarcraft.com VERY bad idea.

Please explain. I really do not understand what you are alluding to, never having visited the WoW forums.