HBO Game of Thrones Inspired by the Moors.

[Winner]

Wow, that tv series got popular! You all know that the guy is never going to finish his damn books, don't you?

It's a distinct possibility.

There is even greater threat that HBO won't finish the series.

(BTW, they're shooting King's Landing scenes in Dubrovnik. I've been there, and I agree that the town is a very good choice - it has this very Mediterranean feel to it without being too exotic).

 

[Yeekim]

Wow, that tv series got popular! You all know that the guy is never going to finish his damn books, don't you?

Why so mean? I refuse to consider the possibility!

It's a distinct possibility.

There is even greater threat that HBO won't finish the series.

GoT is now 3rd most watched show in HBO´s history, behind Sopranos and True Blood.
I don't think we need to fear any premature cancellation.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/01/t...on-hbo-3rd-most-in-networks-history/#comments

 

[Winner]

GoT is now 3rd most watched show in HBO´s history, behind Sopranos and True Blood.
I don't think we need to fear any premature cancellation.

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/01/t...on-hbo-3rd-most-in-networks-history/#comments

Because the first book is the easiest to make into a relatively coherent TV series. It will get harder to capture all the subplots of the latter books on screen, and I fear people who didn't read the books will get lost. It always happens to TV series that aren't episodical.

At least with HBO we have a good chance we'll get two or three more seasons before they give up because of the costs.

 

[mitsho]

@innomatu if he never finishes, so what? I do like the books anyways


And there are rumours that HBO is going to greenlight Seasons 3 and 4 pretty soon which will cover the third book, a Storm of Swords. The end of it (the aftermath of the famous RW) would be a good end for the TV series if they choose to do so. In any case, by the end of that we will know how much the TV series changed from the books and so we can predict how they could incorporate AFFC and ADWD (atm I guess 1.5 seasons mashed together) and TWOW (first half with the battle of Ice and Fire completes season 6, and then who knows...). So, things look pretty good for Game of Thrones, the TV series atm.

 

[holy king]

you think twow will be out by the time season 4 has run?

 

[mitsho]

no, by season 6. That's May 2016 years. So much can happen until then and that's about how long it took him for the 5th book, right? ;-) Also, he says that the "Meerenese Knot" hold him up and he says he's now over that

In any case, it doesn't matter. My point was rather that by the end of season 4, the tv show will have deviated so much from the book that it's impossible to say how they will go on then. The end of that season will be the time for the show to be renewed for a few more seasons with a set game plan or to end it.

 

[innonimatu]

@innomatu if he never finishes, so what? I do like the books anyways

And perhaps he should have ended it earlier, if he couldn't come up with a proper ending. Which he clearly can't. The first couple of books were good. The last one wasn't worth the money. Imho...

Martin started with a good (and somewhat unusual) setting of warfare without excessive fantasy, and now you have corpses walking around, dragons, sorcerer priestesses, queens of slaves...
Also the stark brats are getting on my nerves. They way they behaved they should all have gotten themselves killed. Instead they go on surviving the improbable. The series started praised by it's "violent realist", it has now collapsed into total fantasy nonsense. The dwarf is just about the only character with some interest left.

 

[Winner]

And perhaps he should have ended it earlier, if he couldn't come up with a proper ending. Which he clearly can't. The first couple of books were good. The last one wasn't worth the money. Imho...

Martin started with a good (and somewhat unusual) setting of warfare without excessive fantasy, and now you have corpses walking around, dragons, sorcerer priestesses, queens of slaves...
Also the stark brats are getting on my nerves. They way they behaved they should all have gotten themselves killed. Instead they go on surviving the improbable. The series started praised by it's "violent realist", it has now collapsed into total fantasy nonsense. The dwarf is just about the only character with some interest left.

Take a deep breath and calm yourself, m'kay?

It *is* a fantasy setting. Compared to most others, even in the last books the purely magical elements are still relatively sparse. I'd argue that it's how it was supposed to be. Some critics think he's adding more magic to cover up his cluelessness as to what to do with certain characters and their plotlines, I think he intended to do it from the start. In asoiaf, magic is introduced gradually, which is IMO its strongest suit. I am more of a sci-fi fan, and when I open a book where wizards cast fireballs since the bloody page one, I throw it to the corner of the room and don't open it again. This series was literally the first fantasy saga I could stomach.

As for the characters, with some I sympathize more, with some I sympathize less. Which POVs are the best differs markedly depending on the reader. For example, I never particularly enjoyed Arya's chapters (because a) I find her a little annoying; b) for most of the time she's not around where the important stuff is happening), but I like Sansa's chapters (even though she as a character is even more annoying), especially since Littlefinger abducted/saved her.

I think Martins know well how it will *end*, it's getting there that's the problem

 

[mitsho]

I do agree that the realism/grittiness of the series is overstated. Robbs Death flowed naturally, but now I do think he's just killing off the Lannisters and Freys for the sake of it. The Stark kids are pretty safe whatever they are doing, so you got a point there.

I don't think Magic is too prevalent. It is clear from the Prologue that there is some Magic aspect, the key to its success is though that it's not the Magic of TVtropes.com . It's no Deus ex machina but something that has too be earned and can go horribly wrong. Everything has its price and so on (although it remains to be seen what he does with Bran though).

Wether GRRM is just expanding ever more without coming to a finish anytime or wether he does have a plan is impossible to say for us outsiders. It looks like he had a big problem in the middle of the series, with AFFC, ADWD and (probably) the first part of TWOW. It took him more than ten years to write them and he did start the Dunk&Egg-Stories in the meantime as another side project for the Westeros world. But if he is right, he now has solved the Meerenes Knot, and that remains to be seen...

EDIT: Why I don't think there's too much Magic:
- The Others have been introduced in the Prologue of the first book. They have been talked about plenty in Brans Chapters f.e. (Old Nan). They are the magical arch-enemy of the series. Something it does need somehow, not'
- The Wights (Walking corpses) are in connection to them. They are what makes you fear the White Walkers especially. They are why Jon is trying to get the Wildlings South of the Wall. So they do have a plot point merit.
- The Dragons are the plot point for bringing Dany into the Plot. Without them, she would have been brought back to Vaes Dothrak or ended up again as the beggar queen and a sideplot to Illyrio. So, they do have a plot merit. Also they are fun. What fantasy series without Dragons? But they're no deus ex machina, as they are incredibly hard to control, etc.
- The Ressurections of Beric Dondarrion, Catelyn and others by Red Priest. They do introduce us into the more Fire aspect of the Song of Ice and Fire. They are mostly world building, I do agree. Dragonglass candles and shadowbabies are well pushing it.
- Qyburns Frankenstein's Monster and so on, yes, it seems to much...
- Warging generally is seen as a character development point for the young kids and it discusses ethical questions (Bran going into Hodor and Hodor retreating). Also Bran is maybe set up as a all-knowing entity, but limited in power. The Watcher in the Dark. Also not Magic for the sake of Magic.
- Ironborn Magic is probably not Magic at all, just superstition.
- As for the Queen of Slaves, that's nothing to do with Magic but is a character trait of Dany and has been part of her arc the whole time. (not being able to move freely in her childhood, Jorah telling her of how he ended up in exile, the incident that got Drogo killed...) It was Viserys dream to become King, she just somehow rolled with it. Otherwise she would have just moved further on much sooner.

 

[innonimatu]

Well, I think he's suffering from the usual "topper problem": with each new book he feels compelled to increase the scope of the story and the powers in conflict.

Back when I read a lot of fantasy I saw it happen to ridiculous proportions, such as with the Donaldson's "Thomas Covenant" series (he should have written just one series), and Feist's "Riftwar" world (he should have done only one book). That last one should become a standard example of how not to write fantasy (or anything else).

Even now I'm seeing it with the the three fantasy authors I still bother reading (which, btw, are Robin Hobb, Lynn Flewelling, and Steven Brust). Fantasy is always "epic", it's part of the style. Which means that characters soon become plot-breaking powerful. Authors should not try to write too much in the same "world", or they will become "toppers". Just close it and create another setting.

For a wiser writer take Tad Williams, for example: after the guy did is copy of the Lord of the Rings (Memory,...) he moved on, even though he had a perfectly nice world set up, because he knew it didn't made sense to contrive another epic story on the same setting.

 

[Winner]

Well, I think he's suffering from the usual "topper problem": with each new book he feels compelled to increase the scope of the story and the powers in conflict.

I wouldn't say so. His problem is that AFFC and ADWD lack in focus and proper pacing. These books are long, but if you see what actually *happens* in them in terms of plot, it's not that much. It's especially confounding considering that these books were meant to replace the planned 5-year gap, so one would expect them to cover a much longer time period. Instead, Martin wastes too much time with travelling and world-building (why should we learn so much more about places which are peripheral in importance to the main focus of the story, Westeros?) and leaves many things unfinished. Some POV characters are in my opinion rather pointless (Victarion, Oberyn, Aeron...), some are just there to show us what's happening and lack any depth to make them interesting.

Some people say that he needs a better editor, someone to beat him with a stick and force him to be more concise when and where necessary. Because if the next books continues in this trend of content creep, the series will never be finished (as you said).

 

[mitsho]

He should definitely made the 5-years jump. Or have one "interlude book" where the pace was much much faster. The AFFC and ADWD interludes we got (Ironborn politics, Brienne's Travels, various people seeing Volantis, Tyrion's Travel) were mostly world-building, not contributing. This can be seen by the enormously different paces of the stories, see Sansa literally waiting in the Eyrie since she has arrived where she needs to be for the next act in the play while Victarion and Tyrion "hasten" to Dany who's still stuck.

The 5 year gap would also be more realistic... With a few cuts here and there, AFFC and ADWD would have been two good halfs of a book, but the final pay-off is still missing since it will be in the first chapters of TWOW, namely "the battle of ice and fire"...

@inominatu The Thing is, I don't really see ASOIAF as really belonging to the Fantasy Genre. The main draw is the characterization and the political games, I'd say: The ambiguity of black and white and the horrible pits of humanity he depicts (twin incest, sadism, the arrogance of the high lords). So I'm not really interested in "escalating" the conflict into epic proportions and creating superpowered heroes. Though I see where you are going (see Brans and Aryas abilities). That's why I hope he can keep these "in the background", even though the epic fight between what exactly (good and evil? ice and fire? others and humans?) will probably take centerstage in the last act of the play. I'm not interested in the superpowers, I'm interested in how the kids react to those

But I do see your point and maybe the Television series will be the harsh editors needed for "cutting the fat".