HBO Game of Thrones Inspired by the Moors.

[Winner]

@mitsho:

Spoiler :

I am sick of spoilers here. But well..

He's referring to Little Walder which is the bigger one. Or is it the Big Walder, who is the little one? Either way, one of the Frey Wards at Winterfell got killed by "the hooded man", who could be a) a figment of imagination by Theon/Reek, b) a secret assasin/Big ass MF like the Blackfish or Mance Rayder, c) Crowseye Umber (or something like that?) who found a way inside Winterfell (the hooded man talks to Theon the same way Umber does in the Xmas Gift chapter of TWOW), d) Little Walder/Big Walder to go one up in the heritage chain, e) one of Ramsays men or f) Manderly to avenge, since he's...

Yeah, I remember that, but they didn't eat him, right?

eating the Freys already. You got that, right. With Manderley making jokes about the Rat Cook and the missing Freys?

I admit I didn't get that they were eating Freys, even though it was pretty clear that Manderly had them killed.

I don't mind in any case, because I HATE Freys. Together with Boltons they're the ones I want to see wiped out to the last infant

Regarding Quentyn and the Prophecy:

Mirri Maz Dur says in AGOT that Drogo will come back when Dany's womb quickens, when the sun sets in the east, when mountains blow in the wind and so on. Sun sets in the east = Quentyn whose sigil is the sun (and a spear), born in the west, dies in the east. Mountains = Gregor Clegane who will fight soon in Cersei's trial as the undead monstrosity of Ser Robert Strong. So it's yet to come in any way. And the third part I don't remember, though there are some indications that Dany has a period in her last chapter...

Hm, interesting, but I am not convinced. Dany getting pregnant again was a pre-condition for Drogo's "return" from the brain-dead state.

“When will he [Drogo] be as he was?” Dany demanded.
“When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,” said Mirri Maz Duur. “When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.”​

Well, Drogo's dead and burned, so he's not coming back. I don't even see it as a prophecy, it's just Mirri Maz Duur saying "frak you" in more words.

BTW,

Spoiler :

I am surprised that I actually had pity for Kevan, though when I was reading the epilogue, I was thinking "well, it will get harder for Targaryens to reconquer Westeros now when Cersei has been removed from power." And than Varys kills Kevan and Pycelle and I am like "oh..."

What confused me was that Tyrion remains removed from Dany's court. I expected him to approach her, since he crossed half the world to the East. I hope it wasn't all for naught, because then it would seem as a huge waste of time.

 

[Leoreth]

Spoiler :

I agree that the Tyrion arc in ADWD was a huge disappointment. Also the abuse heaped on Ser Jorah. I think despite his claims, Martin didn't really solve the "Meereenese knot" (too many characters heading for Dany while she has no good reason to leave), only delayed it into the next book. I think he didn't intend Quentyn to die in the beginning and intended the Martell ploy to actually achieve something, but had to cut off that plot thread because it messed everything up. Victarion, Tyrion and this crazy Maester whose name escapes me at the moment (Marwyn?) haven't even arrived yet.

I had hoped for Tyrion to become part of Dany's court early in the book (his contact with Connington would've provided a good opportunity to put him in her good graces with the backing of a friend of Rhaegar's) and then would've to scheme against her other advisors, the Harpy, and the suitors. Because then Tyrion would be in his element again, just like in King's Landing in ACOK.

I expected the other suitors (Victarion and Quentyn) to arrive at roughly the same time, and Dany's decision to marry one of them would reflect her intentions for Westeros and Meereen (Quentyn = screw Meereen, rule Westeros, Victarion = defend Meereen with the Iron Fleet, rule Westeros, but subordinate to an Ironborn, Hizdahr = screw Westeros, rule Meereen). But hey, it's easier to say this than actually write the story, but at least this would've felt that the plot moves forward by the actions of the characters instead of some hardships that suddenly appear at the author's whim.

For the Mirri Maz Duur prophecy, I completely agree with Winner's criticism of this interpretation. Mirri Maz Duur said that Drogo will return when she becomes fertile again and the other stuff happens, not the other way around. It's possible that she did become fertile again at the end of ADWD (I think it's poisoning), but then what does the return of Drogo mean? Still, it's a little too glaring to be a coincidence, although I prefer to think that it was no prophecy at all, just MMD's fancy way of saying "never, suck it".

And while we're on to fan speculation, what do you think did Ramsay do to Theon's manhood?

 

[Winner]

Leoreth:

Spoiler :

I agree that the Tyrion arc in ADWD was a huge disappointment. Also the abuse heaped on Ser Jorah. I think despite his claims, Martin didn't really solve the "Meereenese knot" (too many characters heading for Dany while she has no good reason to leave), only delayed it into the next book. I think he didn't intend Quentyn to die in the beginning and intended the Martell ploy to actually achieve something, but had to cut off that plot thread because it messed everything up. Victarion, Tyrion and this crazy Maester whose name escapes me at the moment (Marwyn?) haven't even arrived yet.
I had hoped for Tyrion to become part of Dany's court early in the book (his contact with Connington would've provided a good opportunity to put him in her good graces with the backing of a friend of Rhaegar's) and then would've to scheme against her other advisors, the Harpy, and the suitors. Because then Tyrion would be in his element again, just like in King's Landing in ACOK.

Exactly. Especially since Tyrion was captured by Mormont, then I was sure Tyrion would meet Dany. And then - nothing. It seems the knot is actually getting more tangled.

For the Mirri Maz Duur prophecy, I completely agree with Winner's criticism of this interpretation. Mirri Maz Duur said that Drogo will return when she becomes fertile again and the other stuff happens, not the other way around. It's possible that she did become fertile again at the end of ADWD (I think it's poisoning), but then what does the return of Drogo mean? Still, it's a little too glaring to be a coincidence, although I prefer to think that it was no prophecy at all, just MMD's fancy way of saying "never, suck it".

It seems to me Martin has realized he's got bogged down in some of these prophecies, and now he's trying to back off. In ADWD, it is repeated quite a few times that prophecies can't be relied on and don't necessarily have to come true. How convenient

And while we're on to fan speculation, what do you think did Ramsay do to Theon's manhood?

Removed the (fore)skin? I hear that it is still a common practice in some barbarian countries even in our world

Anyway, where is it said he did something to it? I must have missed that too.

 

[Leoreth]

@Winner:

Spoiler :

Exactly. Especially since Tyrion was captured by Mormont, then I was sure Tyrion would meet Dany. And then - nothing. It seems the knot is actually getting more tangled.

Yeah. I think most of the people who were disappointed by ADWD are disappointed because of Tyrion's chapters. It's what left me unsatisfied in the end, too.

It seems to me Martin has realized he's got bogged down in some of these prophecies, and now he's trying to back off. In ADWD, it is repeated quite a few times that prophecies can't be relied on and don't necessarily have to come true. How convenient

My pet theory: he tries to keep Tommen or Myrcella alive despite Cersei's prophecy.

Although, if that was really his plan, why did he plant hints to MMD's prophecy in ADWD at all? Without that, everyone would've continued to see her words as nothing but her rubbing her victory in Dany's face.

Removed the (fore)skin? I hear that it is still a common practice in some barbarian countries even in our world

Anyway, where is it said he did something to it? I must have missed that too.

Well, the theories range from removed skin to larger parts of his "inventory" ... there are various hints that something happened to him in that department. When he thinks about Ramsay's atrocities, his train of though suspiciously stops when it heads into that direction. There's also a scene in Winterfell where it only "hurts" to see a beautiful woman. I see there are many details that have escaped me already, probably need a reread ...

 

[Winner]

@Leoreth

Spoiler :

Yeah. I think most of the people who were disappointed by ADWD are disappointed because of Tyrion's chapters. It's what left me unsatisfied in the end, too.

I enjoyed Tyrion's chapters (he's probably my most favourite character from the books), it's just that there wasn't any conclusion to them. When a character spends the whole book travelling, you'd expect him to at least reach his destination by the end, especially if the book is so long It feels as if ADWD was intended to be at least 1/4 longer, but they cut it short for some reason. I expected ADWD to close the Meereen interlude and really set the stage for the final showdown in Westeros. Well, I guess Martin put it off for the next book (at this pace, the series will never end).

My pet theory: he tries to keep Tommen or Myrcella alive despite Cersei's prophecy.

Do they have to die? What prophecy do you mean?

Although, if that was really his plan, why did he plant hints to MMD's prophecy in ADWD at all? Without that, everyone would've continued to see her words as nothing but her rubbing her victory in Dany's face.

Maybe he's using it to flaunt it as an example of a failed prophecy

Well, the theories range from removed skin to larger parts of his "inventory" ... there are various hints that something happened to him in that department. When he thinks about Ramsay's atrocities, his train of though suspiciously stops when it heads into that direction. There's also a scene in Winterfell where it only "hurts" to see a beautiful woman. I see there are many details that have escaped me already, probably need a reread ...

I see I missed a lot of things, but I plan to re-read the book once the next book comes out.

What I am most interested is:

- Is Jon Snow dead? Can't be. Not possible. E-e. I just hope Martin has some clever trick to keep him alive up his sleeve, after leaving him surrounded by a murderous mob.

- What happened to Jaime and Brienne? As much as it would please me to learn they've just run off together, I doubt that's the case.

- How much will Ramsay the Bastard suffer before someone finally kills him. I hope they burn or skin him, along with his father and the whole lot of them. (Freys too, there can never be enough dead Freys.) This is funny because after what Theon did, I really hoped he would suffer and die. But having him return as POV character, I changed my mind.

- Will Aegon/Connington succeed with the "rebellion" or is Aegon ultimately just a diversion in the story, something to keep us entertained before Dany deigns to come to Westeros with her dragons? Until ADWD, I was convinced that no matter how it all turned out, the Targaryens were finished as a dynasty (Daenerys was considered incapable of bearing children and Jon - if Rhaegar was truly his father - took a vow not to marry and father children). But if Aegon lives, they're clearly not.

- Has Melissandre realized her mistake (that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn) already? Stannis must fall in the end, but it will be interesting to see. I doubt he'd admit his folly and bend the knee to the Targaryens who he once helped to extinguish.

 

[Yeekim]

@Winner

Spoiler :

Jon will probably need to die (and be resurrected) to become free of his oath to Night´s Watch.

In other news: season 2 trailer is out!

 

[Yeekim]

nvm, doublepost

 

[holy king]

winner

Spoiler :

Do they have to die? What prophecy do you mean?

the one by maggi/maegi, telling her she will have three kids and will see all of them die, after them having been crowned. (happened when she was a kid, it's all over her affc chapters)
it was also prohesied that her husband would be the king and that he would have 16 children, so this one's seems to be pretty legit.

so, the dornish are probably going to put a crown on myrcella before she dies, and cersei wont die at the hands of the valonquar (valyrian for "little brother", mentioned in the same prophecy) before both tommen and myrcella have kicked the bucket. the valonquar might be tyrion, jaime or someone completely different who can somehow be constructed to have the role of little brother.




here's the prohecy in full:

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.
"Never. You will wed the king."

.. "I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.
"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggys yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."


. "Will the king and I have children?" she asked.
"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

"I get three questions too," her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. "Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out.
You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin.
.... "Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."


(her friend died that night.)

 

[Winner]

@Yeekim:

Spoiler :

Jon will probably need to die (and be resurrected) to become free of his oath to Night´s Watch.

Undead Jon? Seven save us [

It's interesting that Jon is only the 998th commander of the Night's Watch. Someone on the Westeros forum I unwisely read suggested that after he gets rid of whoever temporarily replaces him, he will become the 1000th commander as well. And perhaps the last.

BTW, did you get what Jon was trying to accomplish before he was attacked? Did he mean to take his wildlings and attack Winterfell? Because that would be a blatant breach of his oath, wouldn't it - even though he would directly involve the rest of the Night's Watch, it would still be tantamount to desertion.

@holy king:

Spoiler :

the one by maggi/maegi, telling her she will have three kids and will see all of them die, after them having been crowned. (happened when she was a kid, it's all over her affc chapters)
it was also prohesied that her husband would be the king and that he would have 16 children, so this one's seems to be pretty legit.

Ah, I remember. I just forgot what was meant by "shroud" and so I was a bit confused. Well, this is bad news for Myrcella and Tommen, obviously, because as you said, the prophecy seems rather legit. Unless the shroud is supposed to mean something else in their case, which would be weird.

so, the dornish are probably going to put a crown on myrcella before she dies, and cersei wont die at the hands of the valonquar (valyrian for "little brother", mentioned in the same prophecy) before both tommen and myrcella have kicked the bucket. the valonquar might be tyrion, jaime or someone completely different who can somehow be constructed to have the role of little brother.

Can it still be Jaime after he lost one of his hands? That would be a fitting end to Cersei.

 

[holy king]

well, one of them is made of gold now, but there's still two of them.

 

[holy king]

Spoiler :

It's interesting that Jon is only the 998th commander of the Night's Watch. Someone on the Westeros forum I unwisely read suggested that after he gets rid of whoever temporarily replaces him, he will become the 1000th commander as well. And perhaps the last.

sam said he only found accounts of 600 something LCs in the archives, though.

 

[Yeekim]

@Winner:

Spoiler :

No, I don't think he´ll become "unJon" like "unCat". That´s what someone on another board thinks about it:

First, at the moment of Jon's death, we have the potential fulfillment of the Azor Ahai prophecy. The prophecy states that when the red star bleeds and darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt. This has always been assumed to refer to Dany when she goes into the fire and her dragons are born at the first sighting of the comet. However, all prophecy elements are also present at Jon's death: the bleeding star (Wun Wun killing that knight whose sigil is a star), the salt (Marsh had tears on his cheeks as he stabbed Jon) and smoke (Jon's wounds were smoking). Now, couple this with the clues throughout the book: Mel says she keeps looking for Azor Ahai in her flames and all she sees is Snow, Jon has a dream of himself armored in ice and fighting the dead with a red sword, Mel sees Jon flickering in her visions changing from man to wolf and back to man again. I don't know how Jon will be brought back, if it will be similar to Beric being brought back from a red priest and he will lose part of himself, if Mel will heal Jon with fire similar to the way Moqorro healed Victarion's hand earlier in the book, if he will be more like himself than Beric was because he is able to warg into Ghost for a time (man, then wolf, then man again from Mel's vision) or if he will be a wight possibly similar to Coldhands. However, the point remains that he died, but will most likely return and possibly return as the last hero, Azor Ahai who is now free from the nights watch (since their duties end at "death"). All in all I think it's pretty cool and isn't just something Martin threw in as a cliffhanger, but rather something that's always been planned and is necessary for the story as we will see in the next book.

Pretty convincingly put, I must say.

 

[Winner]

@Yeekim:

Spoiler :

No, I don't think he´ll become "unJon" like "unCat". That´s what someone on another board thinks about it:

Pretty convincingly put, I must say.

Interesting. What about the lightbringer sword? Could it be Longclaw? Or is Stannis' sword really it, just incomplete somehow?

In any case, I read somewhere that Martin said that Jon Snow will learn the truth about his parents, so it would be rather perfidious of him if he perma-killed him now.

Oh, and the trailer:

Link to video.

Is it Margaery undressing in front of Renly? Poor woman

 

[Yeekim]

@ Winner

Spoiler :

I am pretty sure Stannis´s sword is just a regular sword enhanced with some of Mel´s illusion magic. Even blind Aemon saw through it - remember how Sam told him, that "the air around the sword seemed to blur, like from heat, still there was no heat to be felt, nor was the wooden scabbard scorched"?

 

[holy king]

yeah, it's made pretty clear it's just a lightbringer fake.

 

[Winner]

@Yeekim:

Spoiler :

I am pretty sure Stannis´s sword is just a regular sword enhanced with some of Mel´s illusion magic. Even blind Aemon saw through it - remember how Sam told him, that "the air around the sword seemed to blur, like from heat, still there was no heat to be felt, nor was the wooden scabbard scorched"?

I know, but perhaps it's just incomplete. Maybe it needs to be driven through Melissandre's heart

Wasn't Longclaw pulled out of the fire during the wight attack on Mormont? And it's Valyrian steel, which according to Sam could kill the Others.

BTW:

Spoiler :

 

[holy king]

you confuse valyrian steel with obsidian/dragonglass.

 

[mitsho]

Yes, Lightbringer's origin story is

Spoiler :

that Azor Ahai forged it three times, first plunging into water, but it was too weak, then plunging it into a living lion (or animal, not sure), but it was still to weak. The final third time, he plunged the sword to cool it down into the love of his life, Nissa Nissa. When she died (because her husband friggin stabbed her), lightbringer got its magical powers to - duh - bring light.

So in order for a new lightbringer to be forged, there needs to be a sacrifice. I do hope that it will be Melisandre sacrificing herself. However, it could really be anyone from Ghost to Arya. Alternatively, Lightbringer is not an actual sword but rather an idea, like the Night Watch which Jon is reforging right now.

Also, the valonquar part of the Magi-Prophecy is a perfect example for why prophecies are a bit pointless. Simply everyone can be the Little Brother. She obviously thinks it's Tyrion, but Jaime is also a possibility. But it doesn't have to be Cersei's Little Brother. Ned Stark would be one as well, as the Blackfish, the Hound, Bran, Jon in a way (Robb is older, right?), Stannis, Loras and anyone we don't really know. The safest bet is that it is a man, but well...

Also there's a mistake somewhere above. The girl that Cersei makes fun of in her flashback, didn't die that night, but a few weeks later. She however was most probably pushed into the well by Cersei who thinks about her screams from the hole...

If we are with crazy subtext that nobody got besides the book nerds, who got that Aeron the Drowned Priest was molested by Euron as a kid? Apparently, the way he describes the screaching of the door. As for Theon's manhood, I hope for him, but I'm not positive. Ramsay Snow/Bolton in any case is a really interesting case, but he obviously doe belong more onto Criminal Minds than Game of Thrones ;-) I do think he's a sadist, but also that he's more interested into men, seeing the way he focuses on Theon as his play object and watching him "prepare" his bride in the wedding night...

Love the cartoon, winner. Really nice find ;-) In this direction, I love this one

Link to video.

As for the trailer, it's badass. Was that now the second king? First trailer was about Stannis, second seems to be King's Landing focused with Varys narrating and pushing Tyrion for the main role. Can we now wait for one with Balon (or rather Theon?), Renly and Robb? It is the War of the Five Kings after all!

 

[Winner]

you confuse valyrian steel with obsidian/dragonglass.

I don't. It's in AFFC and ADWD, the talk Sam and Jon have before Sam departs. Sam says he read that the Others can be hurt by dragon-steel, and both assume this means Valyrian steel.

 

[innonimatu]

Wow, that tv series got popular! You all know that the guy is never going to finish his damn books, don't you?