Help anyone?

[ADLOTS]

I *usually* play Monarch and large map, with 8 other civs. I usually go for expansionist civ's and sometimes militaristic, but usually comercial.


In the beggining i try compelte a settler a turn after i have 3 in my citty. After i have discovered my neighbours power, ill have 4-6 citties, ill stop settler production and quickly take over my enemy. Though, the time it takes can sometimes be very long.

By takign over my enemy, ill gain an extra 2-3 citties because most of their citties will be destroyed by me because of their low pop. But I wont try and kill them too quickly, ill keep making peace and demanding things from them, then when they try and make a new citty i capture their settlers, so by the time ive destroyed them i have about 6-8 workers and a nicely established road system.

After the war however I encoutner a problem. I notice that:

a) My culture is low
b) I havent been going for any wonders
c) The other civilizations are FURIOUS or ANNOYED at me. (Probably because i destroyed an entire civilization).
d) The AI are catching up in terms of technology


so for:

a) i build lotsa temples and when literature comes libraries
b) i go for great library by starting on pyramids
c) try to trade with other civilizations and build embasies (ill have gotten lotsa gold from my war)
d) i start buying and selling technology, and i become known as a 'tough negotiator' which i think is bad for my repuation.


sometimes all address the above issues while im fighting the war so that i can continue to bully the other civilization for a while.


The help I need is this. By the end of fixing my problems, I have a moderate to low military. My culture is high but there is one civilization whos is higher. My technology is high but one civilizations if a lot higher and selling their techs before i can. And my enemies have expanded A LOT! so taking them over is very difficult.

At this time im usually quite rich and it is towards the end of the middle ages, im discovering something like invention.

So what can I do to take over my enemies, my reputation is bad so there is no forming alliances, i cant offer tech because they can just get it from some1 else and my army isnt strong enough to fight a war by myself against a stronger foe.

Things i usually go for after this are OCC , because I will have over done it with my culture in one citty. Or ill go for Dominant in a very slow fashion, and this gets very tedious.

Some advice ive been seeing throughout this forum for expansion is building pyramids, well this is alright, but rapid expansion always seems to go bad for me as my citties grow too big too fast and people start getting pissed off.

 

[Sullla]

Here are a couple of things that might help you out.

1) Timing your cities to produce a settler just as they hit size 3 is not the fastest way to expand rapidly. In fact, it's one of the slowest ways to do so due to the time it takes to grow back to size 3. I recommend building a granary before you build any settlers, which will greatly speed up the rate at which your capital grows back to a size where it can produce settlers. Rather than producing settlers at size 3 and then dropping back to size 1 again, where you have little to no production, you may also want to run a cycle where your capital goes from size 2-4 or 3-5 on settler production, since you will be getting more shields each turn in both cases. Following this strategy should allow you to easily outexpand the Monarch AI given a decent starting position.

2) I don't quite understand why you decide to attack your neighbor as soon as you get 4-6 cities. If there is any unclaimed land on the map, you should be grabbing that and not attacking a neighbor! It's far easier to get unclaimed land than to take it from someone else. On a large map with only 8 other civs, cutting off your peaceful expansion so soon is like shooting yourself in the foot; don't fight unless you have to.

3) You stated that all of the other AI civs hate you by the middle of the game. Well, this is a natural consequence of your continued broken peace treaties against the neighbor civ that you attacked earlier. If you want the AI civs to deal fairly with you, you must deal fairly with them, and that includes keeping the peace treaties you sign. They will know if you go back on your word and violate treaties over and over again.

4) You could use some practice with diplomacy as well. If you really have a lot of money left over from wars, it should be easy to trade your way into tech parity. Then again, if you've angered everyone else so much that they won't trade with you, you have no one but yourself to blame.

I suggest more peaceful expansion in the early game and keeping your word when it comes to deals that you have signed. It sounds like you've been playing like an evil dictator of sorts, and as a result you can't be too surprised when the AI treats you the same way back.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Sullla
1) Timing your cities to produce a settler just as they hit size 3 is not the fastest way to expand rapidly. In fact, it's one of the slowest ways to do so due to the time it takes to grow back to size 3. I recommend building a granary before you build any settlers, which will greatly speed up the rate at which your capital grows back to a size where it can produce settlers. Rather than producing settlers at size 3 and then dropping back to size 1 again, where you have little to no production, you may also want to run a cycle where your capital goes from size 2-4 or 3-5 on settler production, since you will be getting more shields each turn in both cases. Following this strategy should allow you to easily outexpand the Monarch AI given a decent starting position.

Hmmm. This is news to me. It seems like almost every strategy thread I've read suggests a warrior,warrior,settler build out. I know I've done the granary before myself at times, but it's kinda hard to compare the effects for me.

So how many people here vote with Sullla on this one? Maybe I've been shooting myself in the foot all this time without realizing it. Does it depend on the mix of food/shields in your first city?

 

[Scyphax]

You can still go to war and not break treaties.
I declare war outside the borders of the Civ I am about to attack. I beat it down to a small size then demand techs and luxuries for peace. I try to hem it in will a few cities. I then give it any spare luxuries and a little gold once and a while. This creates a small peaceful neighbour and I think it may enhance my reputation with other CIVs.
If I play some CIVs (The Aztecs for instance) I find that I can have a easy win if I have subdued 2 other civilisations before the end of the ancient era if I haven't then I am doomed.
I try an maximise my use of my CIVs UU (except if I am Egyptian or French) and go to war as soon as this becomes available.
I find a very effective stategy is to stop a neighbouring CIV gaining its UU. Take the Persians and Romans on before they build a road to the iron or the Iroquoi before they have horses.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I tend to start up with warrior, warrior, settler. Even if I've got Pottery available right from the start, I'll want some exploration ability.

If I'm being Expansionistic, it'll be more like scout, scout, settler, of course.

After that, I'll have my cities periodically produce settlers, but not faster than that they have a net pop growth. I can usually keep pace or better with AI as regards expansion.

I generally favour an early war, to take over a neighbouring civ (all my wins on Monarch as started with an early conquest). Unlike billindenver, I prefer a clean war to the (AI's) death. That keeps my rep intact, and keeps the time I'm not building my infrastructure down - well worth forgoing the chance of some extra extorsion, me thinks.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
Unlike billindenver, I prefer a clean war to the (AI's) death.

Are you sure you are talking to me? I'm usually a pretty peaceful builder.

 

[RufRydyr]

Skip the culture IMO. I have lots of cities culture flip to other civs, but with my strong military I can retake them. I build a few workers, but mostly settlers and military units.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Even if you don't break treaties, the AI will not like you when you raze their cities. Attacking while the AI is still in despot usually results in razed cities, because the AI will whip cities down to size 1 and then the city gets auto-razed when you capture it. When you raze their cities, the AI will still trade with you (unless you've broken treaties), but they will be 'annoyed' and 'furious' with you because you are viewed as a nasty warmonger and will charge you higher prices.

I don't attack when I only have 4-6 cities, unless I am 'fishing' for a great leader or playing a smaller map. If I do attack very early I use a minimal number of units (whatever units I could build in between settler production, but enough units to capture at least one city and hold it), and am very careful about where the AI has their units and how many of them they have. And get peace, ASAP for techs/cities. Usually the AI will sign peace after you have captured one of their cities. On higher levels, the AI starts out stronger than you (free units at the start), plus they have a production and growth bonus. Especially on emperor or deity, the AI starts out with so many units that you don't want to declare war too early, as they still have a power lead (check the power rankings from the histograph screen) on you and will want you to pay them for peace instead of the other way around.

Sulla is right. By waging war early, you are spending many shields on units to fight the AI (some of those shields will be lost because you will lose some units), when you could spend those shields on granaries and settlers to claim land without a fight. If you can out-expand the AI, you'll be in a much better situation to be able to wage war, without neglecting culture and science. Yes, it is nice that you can 'knock a civ down' by taking a couple of his cities early, but all the rest of the civs are continuing to expand peacefully and will be way ahead of you if you invest too much on early military/war. You should send some units out and make sure you meet all the civs ASAP. The more civs you meet the cheaper it will be for you to buy techs (the more civs that YOU have MET that have a particular tech, makes that tech cheaper for you to buy).

 

[RufRydyr]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Especially on emperor or deity, the AI starts out with so many units that you don't want to declare war too early, as they still have a power lead (check the power rankings from the histograph screen) on you and will want you to pay them for peace instead of the other way around.

I like to watch the AIs destroy each other while I'm building in the beginning. If several gang up on one civ, I'll go pick over the spoils and take a couple of cities. Also, I like to get alliances so it's us against 1 civ. Especially when you have an ally on the opposite side of the enemy civ, their forces are split.

 

[Termodinamika]

Like in the title, first goal is to conquere your continent (or big part of it if it is pangea).

To do so, I usually build three cities and then build only warriors (no barracks, no grannaries, nothing).
I research Iron working for you know what and then

- with swordsmans I conquer this continent.

After that I build other stuff in cities.

What abou wonders? Usually after that many war, you get leaders and then hurry them for piramides and Great library.

This is really a military option....

 

[RufRydyr]

What level do you play on Termodinamika and how many swordsman do you have before you attack?

 

[Termodinamika]

Like in the title, first goal is to conquere your continent (or big part of it if it is pangea).

To do so, I usually build three cities and then build only warriors (no barracks, no grannaries, nothing).
I research Iron working for you know what and then

- with swordsmans I conquer this continent.

After that I build other stuff in cities.

What abou wonders? Usually after that many war, you get leaders and then hurry them for piramides and Great library.

This is really a military option....

 

[Termodinamika]

I just build them all the time so I have around 7 which is enough for destroying nearby civs. When I conquer more civs, more cities and more swordsmans.

At the beginning I start killing enemies with four (four on one city) and then I just send them as tey are built.

I play on Regent or Monarch Level, perhaps too easy for you.

 

[RufRydyr]

I play on Monarch and up now. I like to expand as much as possible before going to war.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Even if you don't break treaties, the AI will not like you when you raze their cities.

OK, you mean those size 1 cities with no cultural improvements that are 'auto-razed' count AGAINST ME??? Oh, now that's a pisser. I'm sure that accounts for the annoyed/furious AI's in my current game. I had no idea.

That just ain't right. Why was the game set to auto-raze? I want to keep any city I capture.

 

[ADLOTS]

Thx for all the advice, and from some recent games ive played, ive seen an early military option is not very beneficial.

The only problem with a peacful startup is that I dont have any foreign workers that I captured from wars, so that my citties are not all connected and not all of them have appropriate upgrades around them. Well I can always get workers after I've expanded.

 

[RufRydyr]

Originally posted by billindenver

OK, you mean those size 1 cities with no cultural improvements that are 'auto-razed' count AGAINST ME??? Oh, now that's a pisser. I'm sure that accounts for the annoyed/furious AI's in my current game. I had no idea.

That just ain't right. Why was the game set to auto-raze? I want to keep any city I capture.

I thought capturing and abandoning cities was better reputation wise than pillaging them, but it said (in the last chat I think) that abandoning those cities where there are more foreigners than your own kind gives just as bad a hit.

I've also heard that if you make a military pact or trade embargo with someone and kill off the victim before the 20 turns is up that you get a reputation hit, too.

It seems kinda stupid.

BTW, in my current game I abused ROPs early and everyone stayed furious for the rest of the game. It made getting spies in there harder and I think it had other negative effects too.

 

[Bamspeedy]

The only problem with a peacful startup is that I dont have any foreign workers that I captured from wars, so that my citties are not all connected and not all of them have appropriate upgrades around them. Well I can always get workers after I've expanded.

Captured workers are nice, but they are twice as slow as your own workers. I use most of my own workers. Captured workers make up a very small percentage of my workforce early in the game. What you could do is put a granary in your capital. Have your capital pumping out the settlers. Then have one other city be building defenders/workers. That city builds military units and when it gets to size 3 or 4, it'll build a worker, then it pretty much has the build order of unit, worker, unit, worker, unit, worker. The worker should only take 2 turns to build with a city at size 3 or 4, and then building a unit will allow that city to grow back up. Whether you have the city building the worker at size 3 or 4 depends on how happy your city is. You want to get the worker built before your city grows too big and have disorder and have to hire an entertainer.

 

[gugalpm]

The problem, IMHO, is:
Never use expansionistic civs...