[R&F] Help jumping from Immortal into Diety

[Fluphen Azine]

While your are progressing in the civic and tech tree your districts inscrease in cost making early expansion key.
Here you are slowing your developpement by building a lot of districts early on to hit a tech you don't actually need.

When I read this it seems you are saying it is better to go through the trees slower so that your district cost stays lower?

 

[Gaonac'h]

When I read this it seems you are saying it is better to go through the trees slower so that your district cost stays lower?

Not necessarily, just researching and finishing techs you need should be enough you don't need to have a balanced tech tree.
But I don't see the point of commiting so hard to a later tech that's doesn't give you any instant benefit in the game.

 

[RW*]

I overload so that when I come back to those trees later, after having several great scientists, they only take one turn to complete in many cases. I do not need diversity when you will need to tech that fast to prevent from being run over. Like I said in a prior post, this is my play style. Not everyone is comfortable with it, but I am giving key tips on how to make that leap, and to show it is possible.

I have heard so many times that being below T80 is impossible on Diety for knights. I am proving it is not. T65 knights and produced by T70 changes the power strength for lower overall cost in having a smaller more elite force than several archer/HC/spear/warriors all standing around doing nothing while being stuck in the mud for move, while knight 1 stays home, knight 2+ go roaming and they can survive out exploring and grabbing goodie huts find naturals, etc.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Turn 65 Knights!
However, you are saying this is only with Korea?
Although Korea is an amazing Civ I hardly play them... a little too OP for my taste.

 

[RW*]

Turn 65 Knights!
However, you are saying this is only with Korea?
Although Korea is an amazing Civ I hardly play them... a little too OP for my taste.

T65, yes is exclusive to Korea, however with other science biased civ's T80 is very reasonable, even good ol' Sumeria can below T80 with correct Zigg placement (meaning not all cities get one) and I have done T82 with Russia. Scotland is tricky to get going but I have done T78, only once, consistently by T85, with Amenities being the key.

[edit] I can experiment over the weekend on the other civs. Just so you are aware that some civ's that are more inclined to do things better than others. Like I would not use Zulu to win a religion game unless I had God of War pantheon. [/edit]

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

While your are progressing in the civic and tech tree your districts inscrease in cost making early expansion key.
Here you are slowing your developpement by building a lot of districts early on to hit a tech you don't actually need.

Not necessarily, just researching and finishing techs you need should be enough you don't need to have a balanced tech tree.
But I don't see the point of commiting so hard to a later tech that's doesn't give you any instant benefit in the game.

The rising costs of districts is based on the total number of techs/civics you own, not their era. Specifically, it's whichever one you own the greatest percentage of (completed by you / total available).

So beelining a later tech (which costs more and is therefore slower to finish) actually delays the rise in district costs compared to putting that same amount of science / culture into earlier techs.

Also, districts that you have placed but not completed keep their cost as of the time you place them. So placing districts early and then coming back to finish them later is often a good idea.

 

[Gaonac'h]

I guess everyone as a different playstyle but i still think that early expansion through conquest or by settling cities is actually better than focusing on early districts as you actually do need cities to lock the cost.
In most of my games early culture has more value to me than early science as i sync mercenaries with stirrups, so from my point of view reaching stirrups turn 65 and chopping knights is not the most appealing way to get them.
I can understand beelining a later tech such as exploration on an isolated start being a great idea, as it open up to you a lot more possibilities.
Also if you want to manage your districts cost you can just leave tech to 1turn and finish them when you do need them.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Does anyone know of a thread or guide that explains how to be optimal with chops?
How many workers are needed and when to actually chop to get the most overflow?
I seen a Youtube Video about it awhile back before the nerf but I can't seem to find a specific thread about explaining it in great detail.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Does anyone else science research stirrups to 1-turn, then head their civics to mercenaries ASAP? I have been increasingly prone to purposefully wait for knights. It also affords me the time to research military engineering and build a stable and armory (for the +50% experience bonus). Certainly it doesn't always work as you might get attacked and have to just chop then upgrade, but I think it can work as well (or better) against the AI's than an early knight rush. The chops will be worth more due to the civics progression as well. I've been hard building an encampment, stable and armory if I have time (or else I just buy it) in the city with the most choppable resources. Then I'll begin to accumulate a bunch of builders after I research feudalism and place them on the resources I mean to chop. Once I begin chopping, the next heavy chariot tends to show with a 1-turn build time. So I chop it (even with a rainforest tile), and then another 1-turn build time, (with the rest going to overflow with the maneuver+50% and magnus +50%). In my last game I had like 10 builders all positioned for the chop out, then WHAMMO!!! The same turn I chop, I'll set the tech to finish stirrups and the next turn they all upgrade. that way you really don't have to research monarchy at all (unless you like the govt type, which I don't).

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Do multiple chops in the same turn work?
I tried to chop something awhile back with two workers but I swear I lost a ton of overflow production somehow!?
Perhaps I chopped in multiple turns and lost the overflow.
I remember reading something about if you do something else or finish something or pop a hut in the same turn it will kill any or all of your science/production overflow.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Do multiple chops in the same turn work?

I tried to chop something awhile back with two workers but I swear I lost a ton of overflow production somehow!?
Perhaps I chopped in multiple turns and lost the overflow.
I remember reading something about if you do something else or finish something or pop a hut in the same turn it will kill any or all of your science/production overflow.

Funny.

Not being an overflow expert, I assumed the overflow would bank in a que and carry over from one turn to the next. Upon closer inspection of a recent game I livestreamed, it appears it doesn't. I made 676.4 production over a 3-turn period and extracted 721.6. This is far less than I would have guessed with Magnus and the +50% maneuver card in play.

I can't, however, say I'm overly saddened by this, as it means that I achieved victory via strategy rather than an overflow gimmick . The army (and military strength) popping up too quickly for Genghis Khan's mechanical mind to properly react to perhaps.

Again,, with this in mind I can't say I understand what I've seen with the rare occasions I use the Limes overflow tactic either. I'll build an ancient wall to within 1-turn of completion, then chop. Often I'll be able to build a campus in 1 turn (which should cancel the overflow in the que), then build a library the very next with a 1-turn completion time. If the overflow is cancelled by building something (the campus), shouldn't the library take more than 1 turn to build? Anyway, this is just conjecture and memory (which may be faulty). Here is my raw data and summary of the results (only the very brave with considerable time on their hands and a curious nature should enter). Personally, I would have exactly zero inclination to check this data if it were posted, so if there is no comment of the data I present I WILL CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND.

Spoiler Hey, Don't Ask Me, I Just Play Here: Livestream Raw Data :

I went back and checked a recent game I had livestreamed, and to be perfectly honest, I can't say I understand why the numbers don't align. In fact, if they reset after each heavy chariot chop, then why does my workshop have a 1-turn build time? It had been 5 turns prior to the chopping. For that matter, if you analyze the video closely I choose to complete the workshop (which shows as a 1-turn build time as of 53:06 timestamp), then it instantly gets built before the turns roll over! I have never noticed this before. Is it a weird multiple chop bug?

Anyway, so ends my attempt to understand the overflow mechanics in any great detail. In conclusion: Hey, don't ask me, I just play here.

EDIT: Having just returned from a 3 hour bike ride, I was able to devote some thought to 2 matters. The first immediate matter was why I have flatted out 4 times in the last 3 rides. But while not wondering about that, I thought on this overflow scenario. I forgot that I just began using a mod that allows multiple items in a city's "que" without having to check back. This is how I thought I had magically built a workshop (it was placed in the "que"). Be all this as it may be, there was more overflow leverage from all the chopping than I originally stated. The new numbers are 716.3 in and 1060 out (for about a 47.9% bonus). Better than the scenario as stated above, but still less than I would have expected from the +50% maneuver card and +50% from Magnus. Perhaps as you said, when I researched stirrups (or a civic), I lost all the banked overflow production. Shrug. Anyway, I have reattached an updated spreadsheet.​

 

[Fluphen Azine]

That is why I am asking.
I don't fully understand it.
I don't fully understand how locking in districts works either.
I tend to get lost in the game rather than the math of it.
I would like to learn and try to understand it better though.
I may have said that wrong about killing overflow.
Building something doesn't kill it but something about finishing a tech or culture or popping a hut does something to something that I read about before.
I am sure that the information is in this forum and threads but it is all spread out.
I was hoping to consolidate it somewhat.

When you stall Stirrups and build your armory and get ready to massively chop how many cities do you usually have by that time?
Have you played peacefully up till that point.
Have you had games where you couldn't steal anything?
I find it difficult to pump out 10 cities by turn 100 if I get rushed by barbs.
I have read that 8 cities is the lowest but I find it to be the average.
I have also read that 20 cities is a really good day.
I find it difficult to balance pumping out cities and building other things like armies and infrastructure.
I still think I am doing it wrong and I have been playing Civ for nearly 20 years.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

That is why I am asking.
When you stall Stirrups and build your armory and get ready to massively chop how many cities do you usually have by that time?
Have you played peacefully up till that point.
Have you had games where you couldn't steal anything?
I find it difficult to pump out 10 cities by turn 100 if I get rushed by barbs.
I have read that 8 cities is the lowest but I find it to be the average.
I have also read that 20 cities is a really good day.
I find it difficult to balance pumping out cities and building other things like armies and infrastructure.
I still think I am doing it wrong and I have been playing Civ for nearly 20 years.

I know your questions are probably rhetorical, but here are some answers.

When you stall Stirrups and build your armory and get ready to massively chop how many cities do you usually have by that time? Situational. If completely peaceful then maybe 5. If early game archer rush is successful then maybe 7 to 10.
Have you played peacefully up till that point. I rarely play peacefully in the early game, and on deity consider early game peaceful play an exercise in masochism ;-). JMO. I think this only works with civs with combat bonuses like the Mapuche or Shaka (who can concentrate in a few cities then send out 63 strength knight corps mid game).
Have you had games where you couldn't steal anything? Rarely.
I find it difficult to pump out 10 cities by turn 100 if I get rushed by barbs. I find it difficult to pump out 10 cities by turn 100 even if I don't get rushed by barbs.
I have read that 8 cities is the lowest but I find it to be the average. that average may well be higher than mine. But I win most all my deity games that last past turn 40.
I have also read that 20 cities is a really good day. Sounds like a really good day to me. Later era start?
I find it difficult to balance pumping out cities and building other things like armies and infrastructure. Me too.
I still think I am doing it wrong and I have been playing Civ for nearly 20 years. I have a vague recollection of playing civ 1, and haven't played much since. I am very into Civ 6.

I don't think it's possible to have an absolute formula, or even one that works in even a majority of games (as the map, AI's and human civ all change the variables). generally speaking, I think you can have less cities if you have the right cites. In the video from the spoiler, I'd call Ngulu Mapu one such a "right city" which was able to produce a horde of "right units" (ie. knights with +50% experience bonuses from an armory and another +25% from the Mapuche Swift Hawk ability).

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Thanks for the feedback!
I just played a game up to turn 115 as Bruce.
I was able to steal a settler off of England and block her from expanding.
This is one of the big keys to being able to get things snowballing out of control.
Not a record by any means but I had 13 cities by turn 100 which is because of all the open space I had to my South and West.
Most of the other AIs were DoFing me and trade was a breeze.
When I am able to steal from the AI and harass them non stop it is a cake walk.
The games where I struggle is when the AI plops down a few cities next to me before I am able to find them or steal anything from them.
I am getting better at it. I realized that fortifying warriors is how to beat the early rush and after that it is game over.

 

[i_imperator]

In terms of expansion, is it better to wait for the ancestral hall before settling cities? I find that the extra builder can be extremely useful but I am unsure if it would be faster to just settle the cities first.

 

[Morino1914]

If my capital has the perfect spot for a plaza as a second district, boosting a campus and something in neighboring city, I’ll gladly wait a dozen turns. Might even send settlers for that third ring location settlements and backfill later.
Those free builders is just golden. Chop rainforest/marsh, buy tile for district, place district, start working on either monument or walls if I have limes enabled for a chop overflow.