Help me assess my last game - France, Cultural, Immortal

[kamex]

Hi,

I just won my second game on Immortal as France - won cultural by turn 319 with a final Tourism output of 840.

Can some experienced players advise me:

Overall, was this a slow, fast or average win?
Was my Tourism output low, high or average?

Here's the highlights of my game - your thoughts are appreciated:

Tech mile stones:

* Acoustics (SC was my first wonder)
* Printing Press (Still missed GT)
* Architecture (Got Uffizi, PT then built Hermitage)
* Radio (Used Oxford to jump from Electricity - hard build Eiffel, rushed Broadway with Faith GE)
* Archeology (Managed to Louvre but was quite late as I needed to open Exploration)
* Plastics
* Telecommunications (rushed NVC then used Rationalism finisher to get Internet)
* Radar (Airports)
* Computers (Built GFW before to prevent anyone else getting it)
* Nuclear Fission (Just for defense )

Polices:

* Tradition
* Aesthetics opener, Cultural Centers,
* Rationalism (except Scientific Revolution)
* Freedom until Media Culture
* Finish Aesthetics


Some general questions:

The AIs had huge military throughout the game but i managed to avoid full scale war - even against neighbor Dido - I get the impression if they had declared on me I would have lost. How do you deal with this?

I was luck that runaway Augustus allowed me to have Open Borders. If he hadn't i might not have been able to win in time. How do you deal with this? What if the runaway builds GFW?

Is cultural harder with few players (small map), as you are more likely to get a single AI culture hog who spams wonders etc?

Any advise to help me improve would be appreciated.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

That is a very slow win time, however your Tourism output was extremely high. 800 Tourism is not at all needed to win the game.

A few things: Your tech rate was too slow. Key to winning a fast cultural victory is to get to Hotels, Airports and The Internet as fast as humanly possible.

You probably mismanaged your great musicians. I've seen players win with less than 400 Tourism per turn. Most times not more than two or three GMs are needed to overtake an opposing AI.

Did you use faith to buy GMs? Did you buy them after winning International Games? Did you work your musician's guild early, mid or lategame?

Afaik the best way to go about doing it is to pop your first GM when you reach peak tourism.

Also, CV get's harder the more players there are.

You are not supposed to win with raw tourism, you are supposed to win with concert tours.

Your technology choices seem fine to me, as do your Policies!

 

[kamex]

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes my tech was too slow. I started with a four city Tradition opening but kept getting harassed by barbs - got NC around turn 120, and my capital was only size 7. I got really unlucky and had no unique extra luxuries except the two in my capital - also I put a moderate effort into religion, the only real profit from which was Religious Art. I had about 8 stones around my cities so Stone Circles is how I got it, hence bigger focus on workers and getting quarries.

I had about 7 GM in total, 3 in Broadway, another 2 settled. Had two concert tours... one spawn natural at around 2000 strength, another purchased at around 7000 strength - both went to the runaway civ.

I didn't win IG. It was proposed early when I only had around 100 Tourism, and I figured the hammers would be better spent in infrastructure. Musicians was worked asap after Acoustics.

Another issue I had was I never had enough time to build all the basic buildings in the capital - a notable one was Market didn't get built until 1800 etc.

I had around 810 bulbs per turn at end game.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I had about 7 GM in total, 3 in Broadway, another 2 settled. Had two concert tours... one spawn natural at around 2000 strength, another purchased at around 7000 strength - both went to the runaway civ.

This is by far the biggest reason why your game took so long. Do not work the musician's guild at all until you have reached a good amount of Tourism (300+ I'd say) and stockpile all of your faith to buy them when your tourism hits peak! You want to buy 2 or 3, possibly even more! Filling Broadway isn't necessarily bad, but those other two GMs after Broadway were essentially wasted.

Also, a Pop 7 capital at 120 turns is really small. Usually for Tradition an experienced player can have a Pop 13-15 capital at T100. Were you using internal trade routes early? You need to focus on growth for pretty much any win condition.

You were very much right not to try to win IG when your tourism was that low, it wouldn't have accomplished anything. However you made sure to get minimum requirements for "second place", right? The bonuses are very much worth it.

Best of luck on your next game! I'm certain you can trim down victory team by 30-40 turns easily!

 

[kamex]

Thanks. I assumed Broadway was important for CV, especially as France. next game I won't build the guild until I approach Internet and see how that turns out. But what happens if I can't get open borders?

I had 3 food routes to Paris, but not until around turn 150 - I need to make this happen faster no doubt.

No - I put no hammers into IG at all. This may have been a mistake. Is the second prize really worth it?

About the congress resolutions. I tried to get World Fair passed asap so that it wouldn't come late game and be won by a culture hog. Also, is the extra culture per WW / Landmark good for me or bad? I get extra tourism, but they get extra culture.

Bare in mind this is only my second Immortal game. I feel lucky to have won at all...

 

[yung.carl.jung]

That is very good then considering it's your second attempt at Immortal. Congrats.

As for IG - I think it is always worth it to invest the (I think) 450 Hammers into it, that's not all that much.

Trying to pass WF early is a great idea if you know your production is lackluster. Smart playing.

Extra culture from Landmarks probably favors the AI, but in all honesty it's really insignificant. If it means it gets you a policy that you need by all means do it.

If you can't get open borders then you can't get open borders. Simple as that. Try improving your diplomacy by:

1) Denouncing someone the cultural leader denounced
2) Proposing something the cultural leader likes
3) Gifting useless strategics/small sums of gold every now and then

 

[fimbul]

Culture Victory is a bit like cycling - the faster you go the easier it gets.

Your grand strategy and tech path look good and is similiar to what i do when i go for CV. To me CV is more of a hammer victory due to the sheer number of things you want to build - its tough to fit in units so yes if an AI declares you'll have a harder time. hopefully you can hold on long enough to trigger the white peace before you lose a city etc.

Somethings which I like to do:
- build musicians guild sometime between hotels and internet. concerts > GW
- bribe war against culture leader. AI which have to make units cant make broadcast towers!
- bulb industrialisation on the same turn as oxford-radio. You'll get to see if you have coal and order with coal feels so much smoother than freedom for CV.
- go for chemistry/fert after arch to boost hammers
- labs are only useful if you think you need airports. else bulbing from plastics to internet doesnt really need more than Public schools.
- either win the WF or make sure it never passes
- landmark culture and/or WW culture is ok for 2/3 congress. you'll have hotels to convert the excess to tourism which outweighs the AI culture generation imo.
- IG should be the last resolution you need. Sometimes its hard to win with just 4 city trad though

just need to get the capital growth sorted out (size 7 on T120 :s) and you should be able to win consistently cv sub 250.

 

[fyar]

You got some good suggestions already in this thread, the one thing I might add is that you didn't mention the Leaning Tower when listing the wonders with your tech milestones. Behind probably the Sistine Chapel, I think the Leaning Tower is the second most important wonder in culture victories. I know because you were France you felt the need to maximize your UA by getting all the wonders with theming bonuses, but even still I think Leaning Tower is higher priority than the Globe Theatre because of the additional great person growth, and for the free academy (or the engineer to grab Sistine, but I usually build Sistine first).

It's probably nitpicking, but I don't necessarily agree with yung that your early musician's guild was "by far" the primary reason. I've secured sub-300 cultural victories even while working the musician's guild during the Renaissance era. I know some people say that it's sub-optimal, and it probably is most of the time, but if your faith output is strong enough that you can plan on having enough faith for an engineer, two scientists, and three musicians by the time you get to the internet (8500 faith after you hit the industrial era), you really don't need to have "cheap" musicians... just time your last one after the internet/international games. If four late game musicians aren't enough, then your base tourism was the problem, but it looks like your base tourism was fine.

I would argue that the much bigger reason for your "late" cultural victory (it'd only be late on deity) is your late national college and quite small capital on turn 120. As yung already mentioned, you could probably work on that, as that early growth is important for any victory condition, not just for cultural.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Its threads like this that make me realize how much I suck at this game.

 

[consentient]

My 3 golden tips for CVs:

1. Pretend it's a science game, except you make GW with the GP. Basic concept remains the same, though, except once you are in the Modern Era, you beeline Airports and Hotels. No need for Satellites etc.

2. Keep all the AIs at war, but especially the ones most likely to produce lifetime culture.

3. Make the strongest religion you can, buy Missionaries so that you don't ever spawn a GP you don't want, and once you're in the Industrial, stockpile 4000 faith. Then when your Tourism is enough so that 3 concert tours is enough to win, buy the GM and send them on tour.