Help me regarding Swords...

[Illusion13]

I dont see much use of them... They seem to be the good choice for city attack, except that even one axe in the city will completely ruin their effectiveness... While only 1 str above axes, Axes seem like the much better choice, where they can only be countered by Chariots, a unit otherwise almost completely useless...

 

[oyzar]

They are very good at exploiting the fact that AI often only use archers to defend their cities and at the lower levels they are rather slow in hooking up iron.. Way more cost effective than the alternatives at that stage of the game. Even with iron the AI will have way more archers than axes though..

 

[Lord Chambers]

You're basically correct. Swordmen have a relatively niche use, whereas Axemen and Macemen can form a backbone of your armed forces. However, Swordmen are the best unit of the period for killing archers outsides of cites, they make good general stack defenders as long as you have a shock axemen in the same stack to counter every one or two axemen your opponent might attack with. and in cities without Axemen they obviously superior. I've not rarely stripped an opponent of his metal and then used Swordmen for the majority of the conquest.

 

[BigDaddyOttawa]

The answer is this:

Archer strength when fortified in a city - 4.5
Attacking Axeman - 5
Attacking non-promoted swordsman - 6.6

 

[lordqarlyn]

In most of my games I rarely use swordsman. I prefer to push on to Bureaucracy to get Macemen, in my opinion the best multi-role melee unit.

 

[madscientist]

Swords are excellent for attackign cities. A defending axe is tough which is why you bring a supprot staff of them. Swords have a higher base strength and recieve and extra 10% city attack. They are also more efficient against any mounted unit, and easily beat spears. They can also become very dangerous at CR III and can still capture longbow held cities with help while axes falter. Finally the AI typically holds cities with archers alone.

 

[Polobo]

lordgarlyn: I would much prefer not to drive my Chevy and instead wait until I can buy a Porche.....

oyzar: your points are valid but misleading since axes require 1 fewer tech and copper, not iron, to be hooked up.

BigDaddy: It was already acknowledged that against defending archers swords are better......

Combined arms are generally required for anything but the earliest rush, and even then you are taking a chance. Axes will generally comprise the bulk of the forces but spears/chariots/swords can play an important role as well, especially with the proper promotions (combat-formation/flanking/CR). Once you toss in catapults you can reduce the number of axes in a stack and increase the number of swords since the axes will be primarily stack defenders and opportunistic/backup city attackers.

 

[lordqarlyn]

lordgarlyn: I would much prefer not to drive my Chevy and instead wait until I can buy a Porche.....

And what does that have to do with Civ? There are other units of that era that with proper promotions obliviate my need for swordsmen.

oyzar: your points are valid but misleading since axes require 1 fewer tech and copper, not iron, to be hooked up.

Exactly why I do not use swordsmen; with right promotions, I use axemen as effectively, build them quicker, earlier. Soon I have bureaucracy and are pumping macemen.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Exactly why I do not use swordsmen; with right promotions, I use axemen as effectively, build them quicker, earlier. Soon I have bureaucracy and are pumping macemen.

Sorry, but I have to call BS on this. The wait from Bronze Working to Iron Working is significantly long, but the wait from Iron Working to Civil Service and Machinery isn't? Not saying that the point of axeman coming sooner is invalid, but macemen come waaaaaay after swordsmen. There's plenty of time between them to wage war with swords.

I rather like swordsmen. The AI tends to build plenty of archery and mounted units, which swords are obviously much better against, and even when the city garrison includes axemen, swordsmen still get the job done if you bring enough of them (and "enough" usually involves around the same number of units, be they swordsmen or axemen). An enemy city being defended by primarily axemen is a rarity, and sometimes you can pillage their sources of metal to decrease the odds of it becoming a problem. Also, against protective civilizations, I'm way more concerned with archer spam than I am of axemen.

If you come up against a city defended by axemen and archers, if you choose the right promotions, you can attack the city with axes first to weaken enemy axes, and then attack with swordsmen when the city is left with weakened axes and healthy archers.

 

[BigDaddyOttawa]

I think the point being is that the OP saying that swords are 'useless' isn't really the case.

A 10% bonus against cities before promotions and a +1 strength in the early game (before macemen) provides a significant enough bonus to invest the extra 5 hammers in them if iron is available.

Play a game against Hatty and a war chariot rush against you will make you feel like your axes are pretty useless too.

The point being.. situationally, swords have a use

 

[Polobo]

If you're lucky and choose the right promotions, you can attack a city with axes first to weaken enemy axes, and then attack with swords when the city is left with weakened axes and healthy archers.

Cover is an excellent choice since otherwise odds are you will be drawing archers before axes and you will need at least as many sacrificial axes as total defenders in order to begin damaging the axes. (Sorry no math or experiments. The defenders' promotions play a large part as well).

Chariots DON'T work well is this case because it is highly unlikely that an axe will be chosen over a healthy archer for defense. Basically, you are looking for pretty even odds against the axe with a unit that would have good or better odds against an archer, thus the Cover promotion. You either get lucky and kill the axe and get major XP OR you damage the axe to the point that is poses no threat for the sword.

A highly CR promoted sword is a city buster since usually once you get the one or two really strong defenders out of the way (weak or dead) you are mopping-up with your less promoted units. A sword can possibly do in one attack what an axe could do in two (against cities), thus their specialty role. Now, if you don't plan on warring before macemen then you wouldn't want to build swords but, in that case, I find building pretty much anything except archers to be a waste of hammers (aside from one each axe/spear/cat) for my border cities.

 

[Gooblah]

City Raider or Cover (through Aggressive) Swords are the best city-attackers until Maces. City Raider Swords get 7.2 STR when attacking a city, whyile Cover Swords get 8.1 STR. City Garrison I Archers get 5.1 STR when defending, while City Garrison II (through Protective) get 5.85 STR.

Okay. Either way, Swords get the advantage against Archers. If there's cultural defense, 2 Swords will do the job. Unless the AI is fielding Axemen as city defenders (which usually is not the case, since they tend to use Spears and Swords instead), Swords will always win. If they are fielding Axemen, Aggressive Swords with Shock will do the job, since the Axe will be selected as defender anyways.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

... except that even one axe in the city will completely ruin their effectiveness...

Not exactly: (NOTE: Swords are typically supported by Siege weapons, so I'll assume city defenses are +0%.)

A level 1 Swordsman is at a considerable disadvantage versus a level 1 Axeman (6.6 vs 7.5).

But a CR1 Swordsman is only at a slight disadvantage versus an equally experienced C1 Axeman (7.8 vs 8.0).

A CR2 Swordsman is at a slight advantage over a C1-Shock Axeman (9.3 vs 9.25).

And, a CR3 Swordsman is at a considerable advantage over a C2-Shock Axeman (11.1 vs 9.75).

In every case, sacrificing just one Catapult against the city's defenders is very likely to eliminate any chance of success the Axeman thought he had against the Swordsman.

lvl1/CR1/CR2/CR3       Swordsman          vs City  = 6.6 / 7.8 / 9.3  / 11.1

lvl1/CR1/CR2/CR3       Axeman             vs City  = 5.0 / 6.0 / 7.25 / 8.75

lvl1/CG1/CG2/CG3       Archer     in City vs Melee = 4.5 / 5.1 / 5.85 / 7.05

lvl1/C1/Shock/C2-Shock Axeman     in City vs Melee = 7.5 / 8.0 / 9.25 / 9.75

lvl1/CG1/CG2/CG3       Longbowman in city vs Melee = 7.5 / 8.7 / 10.2 / 12.6

... Axes seem like the much better choice, where they can only be countered by Chariots, a unit otherwise almost completely useless...

A Swordsman has a much greater lifespan than an Axeman, so by virtue of a better Return on Investment, the Swordsman is the "much better choice".


-- my 2

 

[BigDaddyOttawa]

Correct me if I am wrong.. but swords keep their +10% vs. city when you upgrade them to macemen, riflemen, infantry, do they not?

If so... more support for their long term usefulness

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Correct me if I am wrong.. but swords keep their +10% vs. city when you upgrade them to macemen, riflemen, infantry, do they not?

If so... more support for their long term usefulness

Unfortunately not, since it isn't a promotion-based bonus.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

crap period to war(if you didn't finish the rush by that time, you probably didn't rush in the 1st place), the tech opening them has nil trade value on high lvls. so I research it once in a blue moon(trading for it when backfilling), if you waited for iw, you'll also have to wait for construction since probably you'll have 20-40% cities, eventually with whipped walls if the chap is protective(another nono tech, since the ai also prioritizes this - again - higher lvls., no clue on monarch and below, but even on emperor construction used to come too late unless I had jumbos nearby), longbows will always come up earlier then you'd like and close the window.

all in all, on paper it's good; in practice, I avoid warring at that time like a plague. Good for taking the barb. cities and unlock the he and that's about the only more or less constant use I've found. Axe rush or postpone to medieval.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I agree that it's a somewhat weak period to war...usually you want the axes FAST, or you wait until you have catas and at least 1 medieval attacker (usually maces). On slower game settings though classical era is much longer and swords are dangerous indeed the second you get construction.

Personally, I'd just mix the stack. The AI doesn't make tons of axemen so just use swords unless there's an axe, in that case use an axe :/. Obviously axes will see more use in typical play but its not like swordsmen are totally useless.

Edit: If you REALLY want to see swords be useful...play Rome =P.

 

[Illusion13]

Well Rome basically has early Macemen... Or is it not really the same either? >.>

Maybe I need to read up strategy in using units as well... The way I've been playing so far (on nobel) is something like, Axe rush whoever is beside me that I want dead, then go to maces and use combination of Maces and few Pikes (to counter mounted units thrown at me) and either Cats or ChoKuNu for collateral damage. I have NEVER been lucky enough to get at a horse until its like Gunpowder age...

Oh and the few games I played under Nobel I was WAY ahead which allows me to actually get to Assembly Line before I get Rifling. That allows me to stock up alot of Maces with CRII at least, and then I have Infantries with CRII which just destroys everything...

Maybe thats why I never learned to appreciate Swords... The only time when I DID appreciate Swords was with Aztec's Jaguar, which didnt require any resources... (Now that I think about it, is that even a Swordsman or was that a Spearman...) With Woodsman II I basically had it run around in the forests of enemy territory wrecking things... Not really doing what Swords are supposed to do...

Swords are ancient units though... Are Catapults considered ancient or medieval units? Seem pretty ancient to me >.>

 

[BigDaddyOttawa]

Technically, swords are Classical units, as IW is one of the techs that will bump you out of the Ancient Era.

 

[Mistfit]

This also brings up the need to make sure that you know thine enemy and make sure that if he does have bronze hooked to pillage it at the first attempt to keep him from continuing to build axemen you can always deal with one or 2 axemen.. dealing with a continuing supply of them is what will hurt.