Hi, have a fair bit of experience of the Civ games but this latest add-on has me struggling. I`m fine on the first 2 difficulty levels but beyond that I seem to get a kicking. Today I went for the aggressive military stance hoping to use the experience bonus of Mr Khan to allow me to rampage. But after getting few cities up, then a barracks and finally a few decent units my AI neighbours seemed to have 2-3 times the number of units out ahead of me. I decided to make the best of what I had and expanded to 6 cites (my first 3 producing very well) whilst buildng up some sort of decent army. The Greeks, under Alexander, started making unreasonable demands before a random event pushed diplomatic relations towards war. There armies then proceded to storm my borders on 2 fronts. I used the shift button to stack up 3 axemen with melee promotion and attacked but his spearman beat them all off, 3 kills to nothing. And so it continued, all my attacks seemed terribly onesided (promotions seemingly meaningless) when they could ill afford to be- despite a similar number of cities Alexander had more than 3 times my numbers and I was destined to lose. Can anyone shed some light on why I am struggling?
Help, Struggling...
- Thread starter scorryuk
- Start date
A couple of tips:
1) Get even more garrison units before you attack. When you do your assault some units will die and you will be adding cities. This reduces the ratio of cities/military and makes the enemy think you're weaker. That's when they start making demands and attacking. You cannot afford a two front early war.
2) Tech demands are not really unreasonable. Avoiding an unwanted war is usually worth it. They would have gotten the tech with or without you. You cannot afford a two front early war
3) Forget the barracks, when enemy judges your strenth it doesn't take into account unit upgrades. Just spam archers. You cannot afford a two front early war.
4) Get construction and build walls. If you can ensure the battles you fight are behind walls it will make a few units go a long way.
5) Monopolize the copper. Deny it to your enemies. Pillaging an enemies copper is better than taking one of his cities! CHOP CHOP CHOP a huge army.
6) USE RELIGION TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Switch your religion to the same as the faction you want war with LEAST, even if you have founded a religion. YOu can always change later. You cannot afford a two front early war.
7) Pick the easiest city to invade, not the one you want the most. Always choosing the worst garrisoned city is a strategy that builds on itself.
8) Get help. In BTS, you will find that it is much easier to get AI civs to attack your enemies in the early game. Especially if your religion is same and the enemy is different. Give it a try, you may be surprised!
9) Every new city should have at least 2 food squares that produce 3+ food. This will enable you to use slavery along with your chopping to crank out the units. Don't worry unused production spills to the next unit so you can chop even if you only have 1 turn left on that axemen.
10) Don't attack other units in the woods or jungle, ever and only attack units in the open if you have an axemen or a horse archer with full moves so you can pull him back afterward. Otherwise let them attack you. Use 1archer/1axeman stacks to protect critical resources from enemy attacks and FORTIFY them well in advance. Even if these fortified stacks of 2 die, the enemy will come out behind or it will break up their attack stack pretty well.
1) Get even more garrison units before you attack. When you do your assault some units will die and you will be adding cities. This reduces the ratio of cities/military and makes the enemy think you're weaker. That's when they start making demands and attacking. You cannot afford a two front early war.
2) Tech demands are not really unreasonable. Avoiding an unwanted war is usually worth it. They would have gotten the tech with or without you. You cannot afford a two front early war
3) Forget the barracks, when enemy judges your strenth it doesn't take into account unit upgrades. Just spam archers. You cannot afford a two front early war.
4) Get construction and build walls. If you can ensure the battles you fight are behind walls it will make a few units go a long way.
5) Monopolize the copper. Deny it to your enemies. Pillaging an enemies copper is better than taking one of his cities! CHOP CHOP CHOP a huge army.
6) USE RELIGION TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Switch your religion to the same as the faction you want war with LEAST, even if you have founded a religion. YOu can always change later. You cannot afford a two front early war.
7) Pick the easiest city to invade, not the one you want the most. Always choosing the worst garrisoned city is a strategy that builds on itself.
8) Get help. In BTS, you will find that it is much easier to get AI civs to attack your enemies in the early game. Especially if your religion is same and the enemy is different. Give it a try, you may be surprised!
9) Every new city should have at least 2 food squares that produce 3+ food. This will enable you to use slavery along with your chopping to crank out the units. Don't worry unused production spills to the next unit so you can chop even if you only have 1 turn left on that axemen.
10) Don't attack other units in the woods or jungle, ever and only attack units in the open if you have an axemen or a horse archer with full moves so you can pull him back afterward. Otherwise let them attack you. Use 1archer/1axeman stacks to protect critical resources from enemy attacks and FORTIFY them well in advance. Even if these fortified stacks of 2 die, the enemy will come out behind or it will break up their attack stack pretty well.
MarkM
Cow Herder
Not a bad list greggbert, but can't help noting that these two pieces of advice are contradictory:
Although the wall bonus is 50% & garrison I is 25%, the XP for barracks will benefit ALL your units (offense & defence) & never be obsolete, not true of walls. finally you can maybe just build your barracks in your key production city(ies) & build all archers there, so you end up paying less total hammers, and bear the hammer load in the cities that can most spare them.
Though there is good use for walls, saying they should be always be built & barracks never be built is pretty extreme!
ALso, regarding this:
A game I played this weekend shows how unwise #10 is: my mostly-axeman army was facing an Egyptian with war chariots (which have +100% attack on axemen). I had a chance to attack a chariot with an axeman, and it was a no-brainer, even though the chariot was in the woods. Not only did I deprive him of the +100% by attacking (since that only applies to attacks), I didn't even have to worry about the woods because it does not get defensive bonuses.
Good luck!
In #3 you say a barracks (which will give your archers you spam +255 city garrison I) aren't worth it because AI won't count that in your strength. In #4 you say to go ahead and build walls (same cost as barracks) even though the same thing is true, AI won't count that for your strength.
Although the wall bonus is 50% & garrison I is 25%, the XP for barracks will benefit ALL your units (offense & defence) & never be obsolete, not true of walls. finally you can maybe just build your barracks in your key production city(ies) & build all archers there, so you end up paying less total hammers, and bear the hammer load in the cities that can most spare them.
Though there is good use for walls, saying they should be always be built & barracks never be built is pretty extreme!
ALso, regarding this:
That is also pretty extreme. My advice: attack if you have good odds, don't dwell much at all on the bonuses, focus on the bottom line of victory/retreat odds & # of unit ratios.
A game I played this weekend shows how unwise #10 is: my mostly-axeman army was facing an Egyptian with war chariots (which have +100% attack on axemen). I had a chance to attack a chariot with an axeman, and it was a no-brainer, even though the chariot was in the woods. Not only did I deprive him of the +100% by attacking (since that only applies to attacks), I didn't even have to worry about the woods because it does not get defensive bonuses.
Good luck!
Well, ok, so I'll qualify, when you're on an ancient-era rushing strategy, you should forego barracks, because you want to keep your strength (number of units) up to deter attacks. Eventually you will want to build barracks in your unit factory cities only, because bonuses are good!
If you do get attacked, however, I prefer to prioritize walls over barracks, because it will delay the enemy stacks if they have seige, it works on all existing units, the bonus is bigger, and its twice as fast if you have stone, and it's never wasteful to build it anywhere, because it's required for castle, which IMHO is the best building in the game and should be in every city.
As far as never attacking a unit in the woods, that is probably too extreme. for example a pikemen should always attack a lone mounted unit in the woods, but for the most part, your enemies will come out of the woods eventually (always chop forests directly adjacent to your cities first so invading stacks don't get defense bonus) and it's better to wait, even though enemy units running around your woods is irritating.
If you do get attacked, however, I prefer to prioritize walls over barracks, because it will delay the enemy stacks if they have seige, it works on all existing units, the bonus is bigger, and its twice as fast if you have stone, and it's never wasteful to build it anywhere, because it's required for castle, which IMHO is the best building in the game and should be in every city.
As far as never attacking a unit in the woods, that is probably too extreme. for example a pikemen should always attack a lone mounted unit in the woods, but for the most part, your enemies will come out of the woods eventually (always chop forests directly adjacent to your cities first so invading stacks don't get defense bonus) and it's better to wait, even though enemy units running around your woods is irritating.
Underdawg
King
Screenshots would be nice so that we can take a look see at your city placement, and tile improvements.
I think even more basically you cannot afford to have as few units as you used to in CIV4. Your attack stacks need to be a little biger unless its really really early on and you can't afford to have any cities with just a warrior in, even inland. I used to use the risk strat of building stuff liek barracks granaries etc before troops to try and get ahead and calculate I would not be attacked. Any attempt at this these days and wham bam and I'm out of there, quit out as no chance of recovery.
For good or ill the early rush with a superior unit stack, preferably a UU that can have an advantage even if you are only level tech wise, still works very well. You only have to gain a city or three (all you can offord without cash problems) as the loss of those cities to your close AI neighbours has a long term affect on them.
For good or ill the early rush with a superior unit stack, preferably a UU that can have an advantage even if you are only level tech wise, still works very well. You only have to gain a city or three (all you can offord without cash problems) as the loss of those cities to your close AI neighbours has a long term affect on them.
Think the attacking enemy in forests cost me- my whole border was wooded. Keeping the same religion is probably good advice- till now I have always wanted to forge my nations own identity to help keep others culture at bay. How hard is it to get AI to assist in attack? Normally their requests are always unreasonable- they will take everything I have to be onside! Also how does AI built/support such huge forces? Aren`t they ignoring culture, research and economy?
UPDATE.. Started new game. Seemed to have a strong start point. Keeping good relations with other nations, even giving into humiliating demand from Rome, got 5 cites with 3 units in each. Then out of blue Romans attack! Relations were 3 +, no -. They just declared and went for me. They attacked my first city, which was walled with 3 praetorians and an axeman. My 2 archers and 1 axeman were crushed without inflicting any damage. WTH? Very unfair! Any help?
UPDATE.. Started new game. Seemed to have a strong start point. Keeping good relations with other nations, even giving into humiliating demand from Rome, got 5 cites with 3 units in each. Then out of blue Romans attack! Relations were 3 +, no -. They just declared and went for me. They attacked my first city, which was walled with 3 praetorians and an axeman. My 2 archers and 1 axeman were crushed without inflicting any damage. WTH? Very unfair! Any help?
Your defense was not ready for that assult, with city raider 1 praetoreans will attack at 8.8 strength, and your archers with no bonuses inside walls will defend at 6 or 6.75 (if fortified) and your axemen will defend at 10 or 11.25 (if fortified). When you see a stack like that coming, between your roads and slavery you should have been able to get more defenders into the city before they reach you. There is nothing wrong with having one of your weaker garrison units act as a sentry and hang out on a hill (preferably with a road back to the city) between you and your enemies so you can see them coming!
It sounds like you are having starting problems, you may be wasting turns at the beginning of the game. You should do an internet search for VEL's strategy thread on http://www.apolyton.net. It hasn't been updated for beyond the sword but it will help you with your starts. That was a little unlucky starting next to the romans with no weaker civs around them and having them get iron so fast, but they obviously outbuilt you pretty badly, which they shouldn't do until even as high as "prince". I'd recommend vel's strategy guide and pay very close attention to your starting 20 turns.
It sounds like you are having starting problems, you may be wasting turns at the beginning of the game. You should do an internet search for VEL's strategy thread on http://www.apolyton.net. It hasn't been updated for beyond the sword but it will help you with your starts. That was a little unlucky starting next to the romans with no weaker civs around them and having them get iron so fast, but they obviously outbuilt you pretty badly, which they shouldn't do until even as high as "prince". I'd recommend vel's strategy guide and pay very close attention to your starting 20 turns.
Silence101
King
Are you sure that you were battling Alexander's spearmen? The Greek unique unit - Phalanx, look a lot like spearmen but they actually replace axemen and they can be real bruisers... especially with Alexander's aggresive trait adding a free promotion, not to mention if he has barracks building these units, and they may very well have been more than a match for your poor axemen.
I don't mean to second guess you - I've never seen the BTS AI attack with just spearmen. That doesn't mean it can't happen, though.
Steve2000
Mighty Pirate
Axeman: 5 Str, +50% vs. melee
Phalanx: 5 Str, + 50% vs. melee
Even with the extra 25% vs melee from the Shock promotion, you are still talking about a very close battle. Then if you add in whatever defensive bonus the phalanxes had from their terrain, and you were probably at some very bad odds.
Do you determine the odds before you attack? This is the key to finding out whether you "should" win the battles.
Silence101
King
Additionally - don't forget Alexander's aggressive trait... automatic "combat 1" promotion for the Phalanx. If those units were built in a city with a barracks, they could have started with a combat 1 / shock combo in addition to any terrain bonus. When I play as Alexander (one of my favorites), I rip apart axemen all the time with Phalanx... very powerful.
Silence101
King
You've definately gotta play the odds in combat - you won't always come out ahead, but there's no greater secret to war in CIV that playing the odds. (That and siege units...)
TheBigBabyP
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2007
- Messages
- 17
The key to defeating Phalanxes that I have found is archers. Horse archers if you have them (since phalanx only get a defense bonus against chariots not against all horse.) And if not I keep regular archers in my stacks of axe and spearmen to provide defense.
Silence101
King
I'd expect a tough fight with Alexander in the early game - Stock up on promoted axemen and horse archers if you got'em. Promoted archers inside your city will still defend well agains Phalanx, but will be at a disadvantage outside the city. If you're also playing an aggressive trait, your axemen should match up pretty well against Phalanx, just be aware of any defensive land bonuses. If not agressive, Alexander may have a slight advantage, but for the money, I'd still bank on your axemen. If you can research horse riding, horse archers will be your best offensive weapon. Also, if you can scout Alexander's territory for any copper and iron and make those your first priority durring war - that will significantly cripple him. Make sure you get BW and IW before he does. Invest in lots of military and expect to come away with more losses than he does - if you can double up your attacks and go for complete kills, that will keep any injured/retreating Phalanx from escaping and healing.
Silence101
King
You may also want to prioritize mathamatics for the siege weapons - That will help break down any Phalanx stacks early on. Alexander is especially difficult in the early game because of the lack of seige weapons, making his stacks very dangerous and difficult to deal with.
Don't get so focused on the Phalanx that you forget about his other weapons. Alexander's chariots will rip your axemen apart. Try to balance your stacks weighted with axemen, but include spearmen as well to defend against chariots. While scouting for copper and iron mines to plunder in Alexander's territory, you'll also want to take note of any horses and consider plundering that, too.
Don't get so focused on the Phalanx that you forget about his other weapons. Alexander's chariots will rip your axemen apart. Try to balance your stacks weighted with axemen, but include spearmen as well to defend against chariots. While scouting for copper and iron mines to plunder in Alexander's territory, you'll also want to take note of any horses and consider plundering that, too.
Silence101
King
Sorry, I meant construction - not math, for the seige weapons.
Thanks for advice. Have definately had to adjust my tactics. AI is just so good at replacing losses and churning out stacks of units! Overall I`m winning, but been at war for 1000yrs. Got the tech advantage now and am pillaging his prime tiles well behind the front lines with my cavalry. But really is a slog and cant see me taking capital any time in the next 1000yrs! Meanwhile other nations seem to be reaping the benefits of peace.
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