HELP! Warmongering and staying even in tech.

[blitzkrieg1980]

My first three or four games on Noble with BTS went quite smoothly. I had very little trouble keeping up in military, tech, and points. However, all of these games were with Wilem (Dutch) and on archipelago/islands maps. I have been trying for domination victory lately with continents and more aggressive type leaders and I'm barely keeping up with the tech leaders even though my military is nothing like it was in my first games, and I'm usually middle of the road in score.

My question and grounds for discussion:
What are your individual tactics and strategies in the early / early-mid game to get you started on the path to superior teching while being able to warmonger to your heart's content with Aggressive or Charismatic leaders? I know people do this on much higher levels than Noble, so I'm hoping you guys can help me get a handle on it. Thanks!

 

[azzaman333]

I only war before Civil Service if...
a) blocked off and need land
b) over-expanded and need improved land
c) Praetorian.

 

[Diamondeye]

A quick expansion to 6 cities or so - helps with imperialistic or early axerush to take out a rival, keeping a city or two... I usually nearly keep up in tech (with the leaders, that is)... I find a couple of homies of my religion to trade with, and nick another enemy in medieval period. You should be superior by then.

 

[Diamondeye]

Sorry for doubleposting, but that is one for the Hall Of Fame for comments.

c) Praetorian.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

lol, but of course! A BC era unit with base strength 8 and probably a city raider promo, you simply have to utilize this to it's max . Also, it should be mentioned that I crowded the map on my first few successful games, but used the default number of leaders for the games in which I am failing. Does anyone have any suggestions for why this is?

 

[azzaman333]

lol, but of course! A BC era unit with base strength 8 and probably a city raider promo, you simply have to utilize this to it's max . Also, it should be mentioned that I crowded the map on my first few successful games, but used the default number of leaders for the games in which I am failing. Does anyone have any suggestions for why this is?

Probably over-expansion, without seeing your games. Less AIs make you think you have expanded roughly the same, but the AI just aren't clogging up the world as much.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

@azzaman333: I figured this might be the reason, however, if I don't expand more rapidly and further out, the AI usually will send settlers to crowd me in even if their capital is really far away. It boggles me how on Noble, the AI is able to sustain continued expansion and high tech level when 1-3 of their BC era cities is so far from their capital. Even with organized trait, my economy would be extremely stifled.

 

[azzaman333]

Well without seeing a save it's pretty hard to know what you may be doing wrong.

 

[SlightlyMad]

People always complain about falling behind in science due to over expansion or early warmongering. I never have this problem. I always just make sure to get Writing as soon as possible, then put libraries in every city with a decent population. Force 2 scientists in each, and you can get by with a 20% science slider. Make your way to currency, and with the 2 merchants from market, and building wealth, I can generally keep the slider wherever I want it. This works especially well with warmongering, because I can conquer a size 6-9 city, and have it immediately running wealth and merchants.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

ah, an early SE? Is this the real merit of going for Writing early? I'm not a very good SE player, and I guess I need a lot of help in that department and city specialization. I started another thread on deity styles of micromanagement because of these concerns.

 

[Supr49er]

@azzaman333: I figured this might be the reason, however, if I don't expand more rapidly and further out, the AI usually will send settlers to crowd me in even if their capital is really far away. It boggles me how on Noble, the AI is able to sustain continued expansion and high tech level when 1-3 of their BC era cities is so far from their capital. Even with organized trait, my economy would be extremely stifled.

Let them build cities near you and around you! Leave space for them. Send your missionaries into these cities. Then build your culture and watch them flip over to you while you build a great army.

 

[Collier20]

Go to war with civs that have techs you want. Beat the crap out of them and before you crush them completely, barter peace for the tech(s) you need. Wait ten turns, finish them off.

 

[eewallace]

I've had a similar problem on noble--it is easy enough for a peaceful player if you are not crowded into an early war (or if you don't start beside one of the insane warmongering AIs). But keeping up tech while fighting an early war can be a challenge. The two best solutions I have found are (a) befriend a civ that is teching pretty fast and trade everything. (Of course, that civ is going to be your major competition later in the game if you are going for a space race); (b) and my personal favorite, steal techs. This requires making judicious use of an early great spy, usually. In my last game, my early war enemy had a small city not far from my capitol. I deliberately didn't have that city on my "hit list" but instead, used my first great spy to infiltrate it, then sent in a raft of regular spies to pick off all of the techs I didn't have.

 

[SlightlyMad]

ah, an early SE? Is this the real merit of going for Writing early? I'm not a very good SE player, and I guess I need a lot of help in that department and city specialization. I started another thread on deity styles of micromanagement because of these concerns.

I wouldn't call it an SE, because I still tend to spam cottages to keep the gold coming in. Of course, if you can get pyramids, just go for Code of Laws and you can expand indefinitely in true SE fashion. Just farm everything you can, and crank out those specialists.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

An excellent idea, Collier20.

@Supr49er: I'm not normally a founder of early religion in these games. I'm ultimately going for military victory and so I don't have leaders that start with mysticism. I find it more useful, since most of the civs I choose start with mining, to go for BW, AH, and Sailing.

@Slighlymad: I'm normally losing the Pyramids in my last few games since I'm starting with Aggressive leaders and don't start with Mysticism. Not to mention, I rarely have (if ever) stone near to my capital.

I imagine that the aggressive leaders are more conducive to a crowded map. Is this a misnomer?

 

[TravellingHat]

I'm only on noble myself, and by no means do I consistently own the field, but the tricks I've used to keep in research are:

a) Looting. In the early days a little gold goes a long way, so be sure to raze all improvements and any cities that aren't real gems.

b) Have alternatives to purely commerce-based research: scientists from libraries (assuming sufficient food, of course) and monasteries can help. If your lucky enough to get a Great Scientist, consider founding an academy.

c) Improve commerce: depending on your techs and traits, work cottages, coasts and luxury resources. Of course, this does mean not working production, so may detract from your ongoing war effort. Ideally you'll have dedicated commerce and production centres, but few of my games are ever ideal.

d) Extortion: if you have currency or alphabet, beat on your neighbours until they'll pay in either cash or techs for you to leave them alone. Use the enforced period of peace to recover your losses, then rinse and repeat. If you get alphabet first, try if possible to extort currency and/or code of laws. These will help with expenses, and in the case of currency will allow you in future to lean on them for cash as well.

e) Espionage: probably using a Great Spy from the Great Wall. Infiltrate the tech leader, recruit some spies and take them for everything they know. Since you'll need alphabet for spies, this can go hand in hand with pointed stick research. Personally, I prefer to settle my Great Spies though, which incidentally gives another research boost.

f) Fight at home: troops cost more maintenance and have a bigger impact on war weariness when outside your cultural borders (or so I believe), so if money is tight, consider pulling back to your border. With luck your enemy will come after you for payback, so you can fight him on your own turf. This combines nicely with the Great Wall for extra GG points, but the major downside is although you're destroying their units and earning experience and GG points, you're not damaging their production capabilities. Consider this a stop gap before another advance to finish them off, or suing for peace.

As I say, I'm no expert, and despite knowing all the above in theory, I still sometimes have my empire collapse because of my over enthusiaistic warring. A lot of this is situational (resources, techs, the Great Wall etc), so you'll just have to make the best hand out of whatever you've got.

Good luck, soldier!

 

[SlightlyMad]

If your lucky enough to get a Great Scientist, consider founding an academy.

Excellend advice, all of it except this. If your science is suffering, don't waste a GS on an academy unless he's otherwise useless. You're much better off in most situations that early lightbulbing with him. I'm sometimes amazed at the techs you can get from doing so, and the techs you can get from trading off said tech.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, I always lightbulb as long as they offer full techs. When GS starts offering partial techs (IE beakers towards techs), then I'll use GS for Academies or settled scientists.

 

[TravellingHat]

OK, fair point on the academy issue. Lately I've been getting far less scientists (doubtless my playing style), so I tend to find the academy harder to get early (and I want one as early as possible). That said, passing up mathematics (en route to construction and currency) for example is probably more of a sacrifice than I've given it credit for.

I'll concede on this point

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Can someone just throw out a tip on what to look for when establishing my first 2 expansion (non-capital) cities? I am trying to keep my capital specialized for what it is best utilized for (usually production). What should I look for with respect to:

*Major economic city
*GP farm
*second major production city (wonders or units)