Help with French opening gambits

[Louis XXIV]

This could be true, but AH or Mining can be taken out if need be, but they're pretty necessary for worker being able to help you early. But 3 techs by turn 24 seems reasonable, and as long as its within 2-3 turns there's no problem really. Not sure how much Calendar will cost though...

Find out Tuesday!!!

Also, Aristocracy can help offset lack of minings, should the need exist.

 

[iop]

Yeah, I think you've got it, though I'm not at all sure that Calendar will be finished by turn 24 is Mining is researched first. I think tech progression may be the chokepoint in this plan. Agree that settlers shouldn't be put into construction until Liberty is unlocked. As far as the early WW, with the Pyramids now looking useless (basically just starting a golden age), I guess the Great Library would be a good idea. If the free tech is any researchable tech, then going straight from Writing to Philosophy is probably the best strategy, followed by immediate construction of a Library and a National College in Paris for a major research boost, and then maybe the Oracle.

An early French culture grab, if correctly leveraged, could be pretty powerful, it seems.

As I mentioned, I'd rather turn that into a massive land grab by building 1-2 settlers after completing Stonehenge and getting Oligarchy. Liberty can be unlocked as third SP, so there should be no problems whatsoever for settler production.

Mining is a cheap tech, so if you were to go pottery->calendar->mining you'd still be getting mines in time to help at least with building half of Stonehenge. I think I recall 7 and 14 turns for researching first and second level techs, respectively, in Greg's first game, and assuming that Paris will have grown reasonably quickly, you might be done researching all three techs just around the time the worker gets built.

You are probably right about that. Waiting to build the worker until you've got a few more hammers is probably wise, and yes, most of the goodie huts, Natural Wonders and City States will probably be found by the time your scout is out if you build the worker first.

I think the only civilizations where I wouldn't go with scout first are the Germans and the Aztecs, where I'd build a (Jaguar) warrior first. Scouting is really profitable and should be used to buy military, if possible, to protect your lands and future settlers.

 

[ShaqFu]

I wonder as to the usefulness of a Honor->Warrior Code->Golden Age gambit. In the ancient era, the extra hammer/turn/tile may make a huge difference in getting off the ground, but the advantages may be outweighed by the loss of Liberty and Tradition.

 

[Caeserportugal]

The best social polcies for me as France are Liberty and Tradition. Why Liberty will allow you to get more cities which in turn will produce more culture towards unloking new social policies. Later Piety will become importante in the Classical Era to get more culture. And finnally you will get Freedom.

For initial builds I would go Scout - Settler - Stonehenge - Granary

In the second city Scout - Settler - Granary

Of course this could change depending on the map that you have and we are just speculating right now.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

As I mentioned, I'd rather turn that into a massive land grab by building 1-2 settlers after completing Stonehenge and getting Oligarchy. Liberty can be unlocked as third SP, so there should be no problems whatsoever for settler production.

Well, if you're making your land grab after building Stonehenge, then essentially you're folding an early culture grab into a land grab, and I agree completely with that strategy. I might even go so far as to take Landed Elite (+50% growth in capital) as my 5th SP so that Paris can shoot out ahead in population, and then research Writing and build what is necessary to give Paris a big science bonus. If done correctly, the early Stonehenge culture grab would allow a massive boost to early French growth, which is the strategy I would tend to follow.

Mining is a cheap tech, so if you were to go pottery->calendar->mining you'd still be getting mines in time to help at least with building half of Stonehenge. I think I recall 7 and 14 turns for researching first and second level techs, respectively, in Greg's first game, and assuming that Paris will have grown reasonably quickly, you might be done researching all three techs just around the time the worker gets built.

Good point. You're right about the early scout, as well. I think a scout first is pretty much necessary for all but the civs which get bonuses from killing things early.

 

[ilikepies]

I would argue something like this:

Scout (6 turns), Pottery -> Worker (12 turns), Calendar, Liberty -> Stonehenge (20 turns), Mining, Citizenship, Worker (purchase) -> Settler (~10 turns?), Representation

I think going for liberty early would be best, allowing a strong early land grab after Stonehenge as well as Representation (+1 culture per city), a discounted worker due to Citizenship (50% cheaper workers, meaning you should almost definitely be able to buy it with early money. That way by the time you get Stonehenge, you can build two more cities, meaning you have a capital with 11 culture, and two additional cities with 3 culture. I think 17 culture per turn in the early game should be enough to quickly grab up the policies in Tradition, meanwhile you have a worker out and three cities.

In each city I'd go Warrior (buy if you can)-> Monument and once you have your third city up build a granary in all three. I would also probably research Trapping next (for $$). Then maybe Writing and try the Great Library/Civil Service beeline.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Here is mine through turn 50 - specifically for a French Stonehenge rush. Calendar comes in on turn 22, after Tradition & Aristocracy; Stonehenge started on 23, finished on turn 38. Will use Scouts to explore, and keep Warriors close for defense - since I have no idea how aggressive the barbs will be early.

1st Citizen works a grassland, 2nd works a forest, 3rd works a hill.

Assumed Policy costs (for one city) are 25, 45, 65, 85. . .
Assumed city growth is (10 + (Current Size *6))
Techs after Bronze will depend on surroundings.

 

[Spark026]

Short form French build order:

Scout > Worker > Stonehenge > Warrior > Warrior > Settler > Settler

Paris stalls at Size 3 during Stonehenge, move citizens around so that Paris reaches size 5 by time 2nd warrior is completed(should complete 3rd farm 3 turns after Stonehenge finishes, max food surplus is +6 if 3 grasslands present(greater if bonus resource present); try to build 2 grass, 1 plains however), then start Settlers.

Pottery > Calendar > Animal Husbandry, Mining> Writing > Philosophy(Start GL immediately) > Trapping(can research earlier if trappable resources present) > whatever you want

Getting Paris to size 5 before settler rush will help your science a LOT. Build Library, then Granary after Settler rush if you have time. Then GL once Philosophy is researched. Pick Civil Service upon completion obviously.

Don't piss off the neighbors

 

[cracked]

The only problem I can see with going for stone henge as the french is the possibility of having the egyptians on the same map. If so, then you could end up wasting turns to trying to build it. Stonehenge early is something I would do with the egyptians, simply because I would be seeking to monopolize wonders with them and builidning it first would be ridiculously easy.

Tadition first may be a good idea, then honour. I would still use the same build order as I said before if I had the space.

1-3 scouts. worker. 1-3 warriors, 1-3 settlers. Then whatever.

(builging scouts, then worker, then warriors should allow the city to grow quite nicely before you expand).

i would be more focused on building great library and oracle for wonders rather than trying to get stonehenge quickly.

Wouldn't argue with calender as a good tech to get early. Graneries give food rather than storage, and pottery is on the way to calender. Chances are you'd get one type of cash crop nearby so fair enough. I wouldn't want to beeline it whatever.

My primary focus for techs would be industrial. So aninmal husbandry and mining would always come first, then other techs to use resources nearby second. Then I'd go for archery before expanding and wheel. then straight for writing and philosophy. (I'd start building great library soon as I got writing and develop philosphy as I build it to get civil service). Then I'd back fill. Military techs first.

New cities would build archers first. then whatever I think I need scond.

I would actively pursue nearby warrior camps for the cash. two pairs of warriors should do this quickly. Money gained would be used to build workers, (I'd want three with four cities).

First four social policies for this? Tradition, honour, aristocracy, liberty. I fugure you'd have a greater degree of flexibility with what you choose by unlocking all three, and all three would be useful for this tactic.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

The only problem I can see with going for stone henge as the french is the possibility of having the egyptians on the same map. If so, then you could end up wasting turns to trying to build it. Stonehenge early is something I would do with the egyptians, simply because I would be seeking to monopolize wonders with them and builidning it first would be ridiculously easy.

You're obviously not getting the fact that the French can go Tradition -> Aristocracy for a +33% wonder building boost before they are finished researching Calendar and then immediately construct Stonehenge with a greater boost than that provided by the Egyptian UA. There is no way for Egypt to win the race if the French are determined to build Stonehenge first, which they should be because it appears to be the most powerful wonder in the game.

 

[iop]

Egypt will probably be able to have aristocracy before calendar too, or shortly afterwards anyway.

I strongly doubt that. France gets aristocracy before turn 24. With only 1cpt from the palace, I don't see how Egypt can accumulate 70 culture (25+45) by then.

 

[Cyberian]

I strongly doubt that. France gets aristocracy before turn 24. With only 1cpt from the palace, I don't see how Egypt can accumulate 70 culture (25+45) by then.

you are right, france is way better for stonehenge rush...

as discussed in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380085

My buildorder for Egypt:
7 Scout,
8 Size 2
19 Size 3
23 Worker,
25 Tradition (+1 food)
33 monument (switched temp to 1 hill tile for that)
35 worker built 2 farms lead to 5 excess food for settler
44 settler
now beginning Stonehenge
46 Aristocracy (+33% wonder)
53 -57 stonehenge finished (depending on working hill/mine or ressource available or not)

Of course you could build stonehenge before settler and without a monument.
But then you would still be way behind france (because of early +1 food and +13% wonder speed). So you just have to hope that the AI doesn't rush stonehenge.
And if there is france as a multiplayer enemy just forget it. Then do The Wheel and drive to Paris with your chariots to gaze at Stonehenge.

 

[cracked]

You're obviously not getting the fact that the French can go Tradition -> Aristocracy for a +33% wonder building boost before they are finished researching Calendar and then immediately construct Stonehenge with a greater boost than that provided by the Egyptian UA. There is no way for Egypt to win the race if the French are determined to build Stonehenge first, which they should be because it appears to be the most powerful wonder in the game.

Seems this has started a new argument. Not my intention. Just seeking to explain my approach.

Wouldn't be that difficult for the egyptians to get Aristocracy as has been pointed out. But this isn't my main point. the +50% bonus the egyptians get for building wonders is.

With no social policies, this makes the cost for egypt to build stonehenge 60 hammers, as opposed to 90 for the French with aristocracy. You cannot pretend that this is not a distinct advantage.

I could go off topic and explain the tactic employed were I to play as the egyptians, But it should seem pretty obvious.

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

Seems this has started a new argument. Not my intention. Just seeking to explain my approach.

Wouldn't be that difficult for the egyptians to get Aristocracy as has been pointed out. But this isn't my main point. the +50% bonus the egyptians get for building wonders is.

With no social policies, this makes the cost for egypt to build stonehenge 60 hammers, as opposed to 90 for the French with aristocracy. You cannot pretend that this is not a distinct advantage.

I could go off topic and explain the tactic employed were I to play as the egyptians, But it should seem pretty obvious.

Except that Egypt's wonder building bonus is 20% and no, Egypt doesn't appear to have any way of reaching their 2nd SP in time to make a difference if chasing the French, who also get a small population advantage in the beginning because of hitting Tradition first.

 

[Celevin]

I've never gotten opening moves, as there are simply too many opening permutations. You should always "play the map".

 

[Le Roi Soleil]

I've never gotten opening moves, as there are simply too many opening permutations. You should always "play the map".

But "the map" is largely irrelevant for the first 50 turns, or so, hence opening strategies. I agree that planning breaks down quickly, but the very beginning of the game can be carefully planned with reasonable certainty, especially now that barbarians are less dangerous.

 

[cracked]

Except that Egypt's wonder building bonus is 20% and no, Egypt doesn't appear to have any way of reaching their 2nd SP in time to make a difference if chasing the French, who also get a small population advantage in the beginning because of hitting Tradition first.

when did that get changed?




I suppose really they had to do it. Otherwise the Egyptians would be able to build wonders stupidly quickly. (with aristicaracy stonehenge would only cost 30 hammers).

 

[cracked]

But "the map" is largely irrelevant for the first 50 turns, or so, hence opening strategies. I agree that planning breaks down quickly, but the very beginning of the game can be carefully planned with reasonable certainty, especially now that barbarians are less dangerous.

May be more true of ciV than cIV. On BTS, NOT playing the map wasn't an option, even on lower levels.

 

[jlafleur]

It's an increase in productivity not a decrease in the cost. Stonehenge costs 120. Say your production is 10/turn. It would take 12 turns without any increases. With +20%, it would take 10 turns (10 x 1.2 = 12). With Aristocracy, you would have a +50% increase (approximately for demostration purposes - technically it might be +53%). So 10 x 1.5 = 15/turn or 8 turns. If the cost decreased by 50% instead, then it would cost 60 and take 6 turns (at 10/turn). At least, this is the way I read it. So its good but not as good as you might think. Incidentally, Aristocracy is 25% reduction in the cost by itself (or 1/n+1).

 

[cracked]

It's an increase in productivity not a decrease in the cost. Stonehenge costs 120. Say your production is 10/turn. It would take 12 turns without any increases. With +20%, it would take 10 turns (10 x 1.2 = 12). With Aristocracy, you would have a +50% increase (approximately for demostration purposes - technically it might be +53%). So 10 x 1.5 = 15/turn or 8 turns. If the cost decreased by 50% instead, then it would cost 60 and take 6 turns (at 10/turn). At least, this is the way I read it. So its good but not as good as you might think. Incidentally, Aristocracy is 25% reduction in the cost by itself (or 1/n+1).

Thinking of it that way, it would be a close call between the egyptians and the French to build stonehenge first, given the difference is only 13%. You wouldn't be able to get round having to build mines in order to knock it out first as either the French or the Egyptians.

You already get two hammers from the palace. Lets say the french had 4 hammers/turn (were working one mine). when building stonehenge it would increase to 5.3 (23 turns).

If the egyptians had 5 production, they'd get 6 hammers/turn building stonehenge (20 turns). Doesn't seems quite as clearcut an advantage for the French as before.

If the egyptians had 4 hammers/turn, they would build stonehenge in 25 turns. (only a two turn difference).

The sacrifice in growth for the sake of production may not help you that much in the early game tech wise, and then make expansion later slower if you didn't win the race to build it.

Additional note: the barbarians may not be a problem, but what about an aggressive neighbour? building stonehenge early without reference to the map would probably make you an appealing target to other civs.