Help with French opening gambits

[Prof_longhair]

OK I would like to enlist some help thinking through my open moves with France.

I am going to play France because I want to play around with social policies. My plan is to peacefully REX early then war monger come musketeers.

The early social policies make the opening choices interesting…

Couple of notes:

1) Given France’s UA (2 culture per city) they will be getting there first social policy on turn 13 (25 points) and their second on turn 35 (25 + 45 points). This is based on Greg’s game play. (This assumes no monument and only 1 city)

2) settlers cost 440 gold/ 89 hammers, workers cost 350 gold/70 hammers

3) From Greg’s start (I know my mileage may vary) I am assuming at size 1, 4 hammers and at size 2, 6 hammers. I am also assuming that I will grow to size 2 on turn 9

So here are the three different starts I am thinking of:

My favorite—cause it seems a bit crazy:

Scout->scout->Settler

It’s a gamble that 2 scouts are going to pay off in terms of ruins, happiness from natural wonders, $ from city states, and $ from barbs. Seems like a good bet but it could backfire.

The second scout is built about turn 13 right around the time you can grab Liberty. So, the settler should be built around turn 21.

The down side of this plan is the capital will be small and undeveloped, but if the gold from exploration was good I might just have enough cash to buy a worker…

From there it is a beeline to Stonehenge

Plan #2 Scout->Monument->Worker->Settler

If you take tradition as the first social policy (+1 food in the capital) it should grow a bit quicker from size 2

The monument is built around turn 18. Which means the second social policy (Liberty) will be at turn 27—(36 points from 1-18 and 4 points per turn after that –so you get it 7 turns early).

The worker should be built around turn 30. So the Settler will be built with the Liberty bonus from a city size 3 (8 + production) call it around turn 40.

Not exactly REX but you have 2 social policies, and a well developed capital.

Plan 3 the *new* traditional plan

Scout->Worker->Settler

This seems ho-hum as I would take Liberty well before I started the Settler.

Still it would get the worker at turn 20 and the settler out at around turn 28.


So which plan would you go for? Or what would your plan be?

Thanks for the help and discussion to pass the time until the game comes out and I can see my start location....

 

[stealth_nsk]

You should build 3 cities as fast as you can, since they'll give you more culture than SP cost increase right out the hat. So depending on the starting location I'd recommend Scout-Settler-Settler in the first city, Scout-Settler in second and so on. And first SP to gain - Liberty.

Also, why turn 13? Paris will give you 3 culture, 1 from the palace. So turn 9.

 

[Prof_longhair]

three culture? are you sure? (actually that makes sense) well that changes everything?

Still the second build can't necessarily be a settler as it needs a city size 2 and given Greg's stating location (not great one to be sure) it won't grow until turn 9 ( a 2 turn gap right?)

thanks for the correction though--it was still fun thinking through all that even if it was wrong

 

[Churchdown Yank]

It seems to me that you've picked the one civ that probably is least suited to a discussion of strategy without knowing the game setup/map parameters/starting location. (Just a thought)

Because the beauty of the French is that the extra culture gives you more flexibility in dealing with different situations. You can add the cultural policies best suited to the situation faster (or recover from sub-optimal choices faster) plus your borders are popping towards resources faster.

 

[Zhahz]

Agreed on the first SP timing..I've seen turn 13 mentioned a few times but that doesn't fit the math of 1+2=3 culture per turn.

I will grow to size 2 on turn 9

It seemed like he gained a pop from a goody hut (event where some people join your empire) pretty early (27:30 in the first video) - but, looks like he was about to grow naturally anyways, so the point I've edited to death doesn't really apply. Cool new hut event though.

Either way, growth will depend on your starting location and food resources. One AI had 8 surplus vs Greg's 2 in one of the popup lists. 8 seems pretty extreme.

 

[Prof_longhair]

In greg's demo I'm pretty sure he grew to size 2 because he popped a goody hut that added 1 pop to his city (cool new hut event that he didn't really touch on due to the chaos). He only had 2 food surplus and it looked is like growth via surplus was going to be very slow. (One AI had a surplus of 8 from one of the list popups, which seems like an insanely awesome food start if you want growth.)

You are right about the 2 surplus food, and that he popped a hut for early growth. But if you look at the screen right when he founds it you can see it says "8 turns till growth" making size 2 on turn 9.

 

[iop]

I'd go for #2: Scout - Monument - Worker - Settler.

First SP unlocks Tradition, second unlocks Liberty, third unlocks Aristocracy in time for building Stonehenge. Then I'll probably go down the Liberty tree.

We don't quite know how badly additional cities affect the cost of new SPs. From the preview, it looks like that the cost of the new social policy is
[cost of old policy] + [# of social policies]*20 + [some function of number of cities].

In Greg's first game, that function of number of cities was 0 (no city beyond the capital), while it was around 100 with 4 cities besides the capital. Thus, it looks like is best to nab some quick SPs that you want to have from the very start of the game before you start accumulating the per-city-penalty to the cost. Which is why I'll build the monument first when I play the French next Tuesday.

 

[thungrim]

You guys are so far ahead of me its crazy.

 

[Churchdown Yank]

Here's another thought about strategy for the French.

You probably want to prioritize techs which reveal resources to maxmize your border popping towards them.

And also (within reason) beeline thru techs which get you to the Classical and Medieval eras faster to unlock more options for social policies

 

[Polobo]

Additional cities supposedly add EDIT (probably 30%) to the base cost of the policy. The base cost of the policy appears to be solely determined by the number of previous policies purchased.

8 Food surplus isn't that bad; naturally +2 from city center; +2 from granary, maybe +2 from a bonus resource and +2 from working 2 farms = +8 with 3 population working two farms and a resource.

 

[homan1983]

I thought I read that additional cities add 30% to the cost of policies...

Which is right?

 

[Churchdown Yank]

I thought I read that additional cities add 30% to the cost of policies...

Which is right?

Arioch IV's site says "Each city you own will increase Social Policy costs by 30%"

So there's another thought for the French. Start with one (or two if needed for strategic/blocking or resource reasons) cities and power through the SP trees for a while using monuments/temples -- and *then* REX

 

[Prof_longhair]

of course you also get 3 for the capital and 2 points per city after that with france and 4 per city if/when you get stonehenge, so although it will slow the SP policies a bit REX-ing early still seems viable...

with 1 city 1st policy turn 9, second policy turn 24 (15 turns to get to 45 pts at 3pts/turn)
with scout->settler (liberty), 1st policy turn 9, 2nd city @ turn 15-ish second policy (60? points) would be turn 24-ish (6 turns of 3 points/turn and 9 turns @ 5pts/turn)

If that math is right the second city doesn't slow things down for France

 

[12agnar0k]

Remember, if your all about culture, then going on early warmongering and capturing some cities but leaving them as puppet-sates will incur no additional SP cost, yet you probably still get +2 culture from it and it may build culture buildings. Definitely a possibility for some strategy in there.
Also make use of any cultured city states near you, by allying with them for huge culture boosts.

 

[homan1983]

Arioch IV's site says "Each city you own will increase Social Policy costs by 30%"

So there's another thought for the French. Start with one (or two if needed for strategic/blocking or resource reasons) cities and power through the SP trees for a while using monuments/temples -- and *then* REX

Well your first city gives +3

2nd city gives +2 which is 67% more for a 30% increase in policy cost --> so 2nd city still gives a net increase in policy production

3rd city gives +2 over +5 which is 40% more, hence it would still be worth it. It would be more valuable if the +30% was cumulative since each additional 30% would be less overall (i.e. the 2nd one would be 30/130 = 23% increase and the 11th one would be 30/200 = 15% increase in real terms). It can't be multiplicative since the could would increase exponentially which would be very unwise...

4th city is +2 over +7 = 28% more culture and would be about break even (assuming worst case scenario -> multiplicative)


The race that I WOULD do your strategy with is with aztecs. Imagine getting a bunch of jaguar warriors early on and doing a looooooooot of warmongering, quickly racking up a huge social policy tree. From hereon you can spend the social policies on more war or use them to boost another aspect of your civilization. Imagine the possibilities!!

 

[Churchdown Yank]

I suppose the good news (for some of us anyway) is that we get to bring out our calculators again! (bah - I won't do it until I get the actual game tho)

Perhaps the optimal strategy for the French is peaceful REX to 3-4 cities with culture multiplier buildings - that would leverage both the border popping of those cities and the progression through the social policy tree. Link up with a cultural city state and it gets even better.

Maybe stockpile some settlers and buy some social policies cheap before sending them out in a second wave.

I suppose what I like is, come the Musketeer or Foreign Legion I could parlay that cultural advantage into a quick trip down the military/facism tree instead of being so committed to getting the Hermitage, Sistine Chapel, etc. that I'm stuck. Or I can turtle and go diplo and curry favour with city states.

I think there are more options in CiV to keep the later game interesting.

 

[Polobo]

30% sounds right; was more interested in the calculation implications really

 

[iop]

From Greg's games (both at immortal, IIRC), we know that
at 1 city, 0 sp, the next sp costs 25
at 1 city, 1 sp, the next sp costs 45 (increase of 20)
at 5 cities, 5 sp, the next sp costs 425
at 5 cities, 6 sp, the next sp costs 840 (increase of 215)
at 5 cities, 7 sp, the next sp costs 1075 (increase of 235)

This could supporte a model of the form
[cost of old policy] + [# of social policies]*20 + [some function of number of cities]
which would make the social policy cost dependent on the history, and which would punish REXing.

I don't seem to manage to find a good variant where the new social policy cost is simply a function of the form
[base cost]*[some multiplier dependent on # of cities]

Anyway, if it's the first variant, Churchdown Yank's idea of racking up some culture before REXing might be a good idea, though it's of course unclear how long one should wait.

As I said, I'll try the monument strategy to give Tradition early (later, the +1 food won't be useful), and to prepare for Aristocracy as #3 for Stonehenge, and I'll gladly compare notes afterward. While a second city gives the same culture bonus as the monument, SPs will be cheaper in the monument strategy, which may allow squeezing in a few more SPs from the liberty tree while they still matter.

At any rate, I think it's a good idea to not settle cities too closely to each other, because you'll expect to have the cities pop cultural borders comparatively often, and thus cover a lot of ground.

 

[Polobo]

This could supporte a model of the form
[cost of old policy] + [# of social policies]*20 + [some function of number of cities]
which would make the social policy cost dependent on the history, and which would punish REXing.

I don't seem to manage to find a good variant where the new social policy cost is simply a function of the form
[base cost]*[some multiplier dependent on # of cities]

[base cost] = [cost of old policy] + [# of social policies]*20
[final cost] = [base cost] * (1 + (.30 * [# of cities - 1]))

edit: -1 to exclude the capital

edit: I did not check the validity of the [base cost] = equation

 

[Dale]

Here would be my strategy for French:

Cap build: monument -> settler -> stonehenge
Tech research: pottery -> calendar -> archery
Social policies: Honor tree till you get the SP that gives -1 unhappy per garrisoned city, then Liberty tree till you get the SP that gives +1 happy per trade route.

Second city should be placed on a happiness resource to offset growth unhappiness. I think the trick to fast early growth in Civ5 is going to be offsetting as much unhappiness production as possible.