Help with Mongolian UHV

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Sep 21, 2007
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I have played almost every civ (as Viceroy) and cannot figure how to get the Mongolian UHV. I got China, but 12% of world territory is like...Spain with all of Aztec, Incan land and the eastern seaboards of the US, Brazil, and northern Africa. There's absolutely no way (after China is subdued and after founding all my cities in Siberia) that I can get that amount of land by 1500. I know I need to get to Arabian and Persian lands, but getting my horses there in time is impossible.

Help a pacifist win as the Mongolians please!

BTW has anybody win the Malian UHV yet? (I got close to 3500 gold but was still not the first in 1300)
 
OK, I tried to cheat by giving all my Chinese (built 3-4 cities up north) and resources to Mongolia when they spawn. And I built many a city in the north. But what really helped me was the magic of caravels reaching the Americas (Mongolians are counted as a colonizing civ I guess) which finally tipped me over to 12%...not before I razed some smaller cities.
 
Like i said in a earlier thread this UHV is one of the hardest for me, ive tried razing my way using UP and by conquest and im always short by quite a lot. The biggest problem for me is getting through Longbows/pikemen in cities with my keshiks, moving you siege weapons takes time and thats something your always short of.
 
Maybe some early help for the Mongolians might do the trick:
1. a couple catapults (or trebuchets) to start
2. more time!!
3. Give the keslik a 3 movement point (after all, they ARE the Mongolian horde and if they can't get to Arabian and Persian lands in time, they're useless):lol:
 
Having recently played them, i thought i'd post my thoughts. I'm playing the BTS version with BTS patch 3.03 and no Rhye's updates. Game was played on Monarch.

(1) UHV #1: Conquer China by 1300. Now, that's really fast, and i'm not totally clear on what is meant by china. But i took a deep breath, cried as i threw keshiks at beijing, and steamrolled china fast enough.

Notes: A - The version i'm playing doesn't display year. Instead it gives Time Period Turn #. (So Medieval Turn 211, and so forth). This is really annoying if your goal is to accomplish X feat by year Y since you have no idea how close you are to that year, and thus no idea how many turns you have.

B - The "sacking cities causes others to surrender to you" doesn't seem to be implemented very well. I sacked the city immediately south of me, and the Chinese city NE of Beijing almost immediately surrendered to me. So far so good. I then sack Beijing and raze it to the ground, and no cities surrender to me, even as i go marauding down the coast. (They've all become independent, because i nailed the Chinese capitol, but you'd think this would make them more likely to bow to their new mongol masters). Razing a further city of the newly independent Chinese states similarly accomplishes nothing. I'm annoyed, both because i didn't keep those cities, and because my power seems to be accomplishing nothing.

Working my way south, i raze the first Khmer city - no other Khmer cities join me. I take teh capitol (they rebase farther south), raze another city (they have two left even after that) and still no cities join me. My Keshiks are racing towards them the entire time (in part because i have no clue what year it is, and so that 12% thing is pretty scary when you're at 4%.)

(Later, i'll make use of my power one more time by razing an arabian city which forces the capitulation of one of their other cities. Razing further arabian cities accomplished nothing. Two uses of my power all game isn't very exciting).

(2) UHV #2: Raze 7 cities. Trivial. No comment needed.

(3) UHV #3: Control 12% land area by 1500... oh dear god.

So, i rampage through china and khmer, capture tibet (Lhasa), and then rush units across the desert north of the himalayas (Gobi?) to reach additional cities. I also start spamming settlers in my northernmost cities to populate Siberia. The rest of my cities are spamming Keshiks to provide military units, I turn the two Great Generals i've produced into super-units to aid the conquest, and my workers complete the golden road (unfinished as of my start) to speed their journey. I grab Samarkand and some other nearby cities, run down into the independent indian territories (mostly to stop their massive culture from infringing on my cultural boundaries way over in china/tibet!), and then provoke a war with the arabs. I've basically covered the mongolian historical extent at this point and am sitting at around 9.5% land area. Raze an arab city, have another arab city come over to me, push past 10%, and suddenly my stability goes bad (it had been neutral to good all game previously). And i'm thinking "crap, i've exceeded my historical boundaries". But i've razed a second arab city, so i figure i'm owed a few more free conversions (massive keshik pushes can be disturbingly fast). I advance on arab cities in 3 directions - no conversions (the heck!?). And then the next turn my empire collapses (yep, 2 turns of showing unstable and then boom, collapse). A few turns later i get a "hi, we're around" greet from a bunch of european civs, and i figure 1500 is upon me. My "control 12% has gone from Not Yet to NO.

So yeah, 12% is just crazy talk. In part, because the mongolian special doesn't seem to be working (which eats valuable time during which your cities could be building stuff while they revolt after conquest, because you had to take them instead of razing one and gaining one or two ready to work immediately). If the mongolian special actually worked as advertised, it'd be remarkably more plausible. A second problem is the massive culture of Indian subcontinent cities, which eat into your cultural radii - especially that one city which you can't get to because all land routes to it are blocked by jungle... i forget the name - its short and begins with P. But finally, 12% seems to be bigger than the historical mongolian empire ever got, and i just collapsed as soon as i started pushing seriously beyond their historical borders. And really, i was beyond in a number of places, including SE Asia, N India, and the Arabian peninsula.

Having watched my empire degenerate in civil war, i quit shortly thereafter. It would have been fun to win immediately before that happened (and highly historical too), but 12% was just too much for me.

Ok, i didn't even try for japan. I know how well that worked historically, and building boats seemed counterproductive when what i really needed was mounted units asap in unlimited quantities. I did build some culture buildings for cultural expansion at one point in a few cities - and ran no state religion so i could get the +culture from every religion in my empire. I doubt investment in more culture would have actually helped me claim significantly more territory. The places that really needed it were all relatively recently captured, and there wouldn't have been time to build cultural buildings to pop the borders fast enough after they came out of revolt.

If i hadn't collapsed, and my racial power had worked as advertised, i figure the arabian cities +2 more turns of rapid conquest could have given me 12%. I had the Keshiks to do it (about 15 in the region of the arabian peninsula).

Oh well, i briefly held all of asia. I suppose the Khans didn't do any better - heck, i got as far as the Red Sea and they never did. But basically, this was me taking a lot of time to say that 'yes, the Mongol UHV #3 is totally unreasonable if you try to play it out historically'. I think i noticed someone else saying they did it by going to the Americas... i don't even want to know where they got the tech for that. I just stopped researching to pay for my empire at some point. (Speaking of which - all the civics choices that straight-out give stability benefits aren't even an option for mongolia going for UHVs... those techs require too many flasks to even think about).
 
I dont want to critiscise unnecessarily so please dont take offence to this but you really should be playing it with all the latest patches.

That aside the year doesnt show because you dont have Calander researched yet.

Cities only surrender if they are within 2 tiles of the target.

The difficulty with the Mongolian UHV is the 12%. Its super mega hard to get that much land.
 
I dont want to critiscise unnecessarily so please dont take offence to this but you really should be playing it with all the latest patches.

That aside the year doesnt show because you dont have Calander researched yet.

Cities only surrender if they are within 2 tiles of the target.

The difficulty with the Mongolian UHV is the 12%. Its super mega hard to get that much land.

I imagine i'm not too out of date, since i'm using the most uptodate BTS patch available unless the new patch is finally out. Regardless, the game was also last week, when i'm pretty sure it wasn't. I don't exactly play Rhye's regularly...

The Calendar thing is really annoying when you're starting in what, 1100?, can't really do research in a serious way, and need to accomplish a goal by 1300. If nothing else, the Mongols should be given Calendar just so the player has a prayer of knowing how many turns he has. Anything else is just punitive on players who haven't specifically counted turns before. (Ie, the knowledge is available to anyone willing to have done a stupid amount of work before, or who has memorized the turn year-length breakpoints, or whatnot).

The cities only surrending within two tiles is proveably not true. I razed an arabian city in Persia, and the one who came over to my side was 4 tiles away (basically right where the arabian peninsula begins). Also, when i razed the first city, the city that comes over to me is at least 4 tiles away as its on the other side of Beijing, and i think its 5. (Razed the city WNW of Beijing, its NE of Beijing.) After i raze Beijing the next city is closer than that going SE, but it doesn't capitulate. Similarly, the second Khmer city i razed was within 2 tiles of all their remaining cities.

I definitely agree with 12% being crazy. 12%-15% of the old world would be far more reasonable (and historical), though i don't know offhand what % of global land coverage that is.
 
Mongolia

* Horde - Any razed city makes nearby enemy cities surrender if approached

When a city is razed, any old owner’s city (smaller or equal to the city razed) in a 4x4 area fears the same fate and surrenders if approached within the following turn by a Mongol unit.

From the wiki. So your right there.
 
And i'm thinking "crap, i've exceeded my historical boundaries"

You have to have an insane amount of land to do that with Mongolia. What was more likely is a number of -2's from razing cities.

The Calendar thing is really annoying when you're starting in what, 1100?, can't really do research in a serious way, and need to accomplish a goal by 1300.

You shouldn't be doing research, you should be extorting techs from other civs in exchange for not attacking them. The commerce you put into research would be better spent on hiring unpromoted Mercenaries as cannon fodder and 1-2 highly promoted ones as stack defenders/anti-gunpowder units.
 
You shouldn't be doing research, you should be extorting techs from other civs in exchange for not attacking them. The commerce you put into research would be better spent on hiring unpromoted Mercenaries as cannon fodder and 1-2 highly promoted ones as stack defenders/anti-gunpowder units.

Or you can cheat like me and give everything that the Sung Dynasty had (i.e. China) to Mongolia the turn they spawn. I gave like 2000 gold, all my techs up to the point where the Mongolians start with (so still no calendar), 40 troops and 6 workers, all my cities, a great artist from Beijing (there's 1% of land with his great work), and even left Beijing open without any troops so that Mongolia can declare war and capture Beijing the next year and rename it Qufu! There goes the first requirement--I controlled China by 1200. :lol:
BTW as Monarch I got 15% of land by 1500 (including Aztec and Incan lands, Australia and didn't need to venture to India or Persia). :cool:
 
You have to have an insane amount of land to do that with Mongolia. What was more likely is a number of -2's from razing cities.



You shouldn't be doing research, you should be extorting techs from other civs in exchange for not attacking them. The commerce you put into research would be better spent on hiring unpromoted Mercenaries as cannon fodder and 1-2 highly promoted ones as stack defenders/anti-gunpowder units.

You have to have an insane amount of land to win a historical victory as Mongolia. Their historical boundaries end at the pacific in China (never conquered Japan - though they tried and failed), Mongolia to the north (Siberia really is/was inhospitable), and basically follow the sweep of the *menistan countries down towards the middle east. Add Afghanistan and the eastern middle east. They never managed to displace the arabs from Damascus, much less get to Egypt. They did Vassalize the Georgians, and the Ilkhan allied himself with the Christians disasterously. (Actually, the Christians were the only ones who did well that battle, but instead of annihilating the other two Islamic battlegroups by striking from the flanks, they pursued the force they defeated for miles pointlessly. I wish I could remember the name of that battle - but it was the Crusader-State Christians, the Georgians and the Western Mongols under the Ilkhan against a (re)united Islamic force. The Crusaders defeated the army set against them, but when they returned from chasing their defeated foes, their allies had lost the battle. (This marked the last attempt of a Mongol force to push SW or to take Islamic land in the middle east).) Ie, I know I occupied and even exceeded my historical boundaries that game.

However, if razing cities is that bad for you, perhaps part of the Mongols special power should negate the stability effect of razing cities. But as i razed most of the cities i did just prior to the turns I was almost always Stable, I'm really uncertain that's actually what prompted the collapse.
 
Ie, I know I occupied and even exceeded my historical boundaries that game.

It really wouldn't have been that big of a deal for you. Most likely it razing cities, losing a large number of units and having a poor economy.
 
As for stability, the biggest mistake you can make imo is to go organized religion or theocracy and declare a religion. You have so many cities with diff religions it becomes a huge stability hit.
 
If you're worried about staying within their historical boundaries, you could try invading eastern Europe.
 
The Mongolians occupied some of Arabia but they reached their furtherest east In Hungary. To acheive 12% you need to conquer Russia and perhaps some HRE cities.
 
When a city is razed, any old owner’s city (smaller or equal to the city razed) in a 4x4 area fears the same fate and surrenders if approached within the following turn by a Mongol unit.

This is what confuses me. Where is the city that I razed within this 4x4 area? Unlike a 3x3 or a 5x5 area, a 4x4 area has no "center tile". So how does that apply to the razed city? Or is it any city that can be reached within 3 movement points? :crazyeye:
 
At the risk of pissing off Rhye:



Bright green is good, dark green is kinda bad, light yellow is bad and White is very bad. Don't ask for other ones or why they're colored like this. I just observe, then extrapolate.
 
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