Help with Stacks of Doom

[VCrakeV]

So, I've been having trouble with war/combat lately, though after some reading, I'm doing better. Still, it seems I can't destroy stacks of doom in a timely fashion. It's like they're unlimited... Any tips? I've tried catapults, but they don't work against other catapults, and still require you to have your own stack to finish them off (since catapults can't kill). I've also tried Horse Archers, but they get boned if there's just one good defender in the stack, and they're overall mediocre.



Am I missing something, or should I just get a mod to bypass the issue?

 

[pigswill]

What about catapults first (even weaker units get collateral damage) then HAs once catapults becme strongest defenders (flanking damage).

 

[nate46]

Typically the solution to stacks of doom is to not give your enemies time to build them, lol.

But really, here's what I do. You need city raider catapults, or trebuchets, and you need to bait the stack into a city. Just let the stack take the city with no resistance, then you take it out with the counterattack stack with city raider promos and take the city back next turn.

If you don't have a counterattack stack, you need to work on your development speed or your diplomacy so this kind of thing doesn't happen in the future.

 

[georgjorge]

First, which difficulty level are you playing on?

Second, the problem might simply be that you don't have enough troops (of whatever type) available. If that is so, you need to look closely into whipping a lot more (Slavery), chopping trees a lot more, expanding a lot faster, or building mainly units instead of buildings. For reference: it is very doable to get something like 12 Horse Archers or 6 Catapults + 6 Axemen by 800-1000BC. And it is certainly doable to field something like 15 Trebuchets + 15 Macemen/Pikemen in the 1AD-300AD range.

Third, there are basically only a couple of general tactics which are widely applicable. The big question is - two-move units (horses) or one-move units?

If you use two-move units you make a big stack of them and throw them at cities if you think you can take them (I know there are things like forking but let's not make it too complicated). You will lose a fair share of attackers but conquer fast. Good units for that are Horse Archers/Cuirassiers.

If you use one-move units your stack should be composed of about 50% siege (Catapults/Trebs/Cannons). You also should have a good defensive composition so your units can defend well against both mounted and melee units. You basically crawl towards a city, bombard it down and attack with all your siege after which every unit left in your stack should win its battle. Good units for that are War Elephants/Axemen/Crossbows/Macemen + Catapults/Trebuchets/Cannons (plus adequate defense against mounted units, like Spearmen or Pikemen).

The important thing is to NOT get attacked in enemy territory by a stack with a fair amount of siege. In the early game there's not much siege around from the AI anyway but later this can win or lose wars. How to avoid this? By scouting the enemy before the war, knowing where their stack is and how fast it can arrive at the site of your attack. If you time it correctly it will be you attacking them (with or without siege) and not them attacking you, which makes a huge difference if 5+ Catapults are involved in a stack.

 

[VCrakeV]

What about catapults first (even weaker units get collateral damage) then HAs once catapults becme strongest defenders (flanking damage).

So, do units with the highest base strength defend, or those with the best strength after bonuses? Or is it the highest percentage of strength left?

 

[VCrakeV]

First, which difficulty level are you playing on?

Second, the problem might simply be that you don't have enough troops (of whatever type) available. If that is so, you need to look closely into whipping a lot more (Slavery), chopping trees a lot more, expanding a lot faster, or building mainly units instead of buildings. For reference: it is very doable to get something like 12 Horse Archers or 6 Catapults + 6 Axemen by 800-1000BC. And it is certainly doable to field something like 15 Trebuchets + 15 Macemen/Pikemen in the 1AD-300AD range.

Third, there are basically only a couple of general tactics which are widely applicable. The big question is - two-move units (horses) or one-move units?

If you use two-move units you make a big stack of them and throw them at cities if you think you can take them (I know there are things like forking but let's not make it too complicated). You will lose a fair share of attackers but conquer fast. Good units for that are Horse Archers/Cuirassiers.

If you use one-move units your stack should be composed of about 50% siege (Catapults/Trebs/Cannons). You also should have a good defensive composition so your units can defend well against both mounted and melee units. You basically crawl towards a city, bombard it down and attack with all your siege after which every unit left in your stack should win its battle. Good units for that are War Elephants/Axemen/Crossbows/Macemen + Catapults/Trebuchets/Cannons (plus adequate defense against mounted units, like Spearmen or Pikemen).

The important thing is to NOT get attacked in enemy territory by a stack with a fair amount of siege. In the early game there's not much siege around from the AI anyway but later this can win or lose wars. How to avoid this? By scouting the enemy before the war, knowing where their stack is and how fast it can arrive at the site of your attack. If you time it correctly it will be you attacking them (with or without siege) and not them attacking you, which makes a huge difference if 5+ Catapults are involved in a stack.

Before I answer anything, I'd like point out that I'm not interested in making the effort to conquer cities; just defend myself and somehow convince peace (I usually go for the spaceship).



I play on Noble I believe (whichever one the AI is locked into during setup).



I think I may not have built enough units, only enough to fend off invasions. I always chop forests and expand (when practical), but I haven't taken slavery. Is it worth it? I think I took it once, was upset I couldn't whip the pyramids (lol), and never took it again...

 

[VCrakeV]

For the most part, I have been using one-move stacks for defensive bonuses. Mostly archery (cities); and macemen and catapults (to push them back).

 

[InovA]

... but I haven't taken slavery. Is it worth it? I think I took it once, was upset I couldn't whip the pyramids (lol), and never took it again...

Slavery's bonus is halved when whipping Wonders, it's mainly used for buildings and units. Slavery is incredible once you get used to using it well! As everyone says, is king in this game. Slavery helps you turn into at a rate of 1 citizen to 30 , 45 with forge, etc.

A granary helps get back up to half the food needed for the next citizen, so it can sometimes be about 12-14 to 30 , doubling the value of a working citizen.

As you use it more and more you'll get used to seeing count rise in the cities you're whipping more often, so you'll learn to try and whip when a building/unit is 31-60 from completion, so you can use 2 citizens to double whip, but only netting -1 for 10 turns.

*These are all numbers for Normal speed.

As for stacks of death, I usually do a fast expand strategy to start the game off, then after getting a World Wonder or 2 I hone in on an enemy to kill. So I warmonger and control the stacks of death myself. When I see an enemies stack, I have 3-6 catapults nearby usually and can prepare to sacrifice them into the stack before my 15-20 other units wipe it clean.

If I want to play a defensive game and sit on 7-9 cities until I have the war techs I want in the midgame (like a cuirassier rush), I'll keep enough units to defend a city, so 1-2 per city, and watch all my nearby opponents with a scouting unit in their territory. I'll make sure they stay happy with me, give them a tech if they demand it, etc. If I notice they're getting angry and have a high unit count, I'll start unit production of my own. <This is another instance where helps sooo much!>

If I still don't want to warmonger in the midgame, I'll make allies and make sure at least 1 civ is friendly with me.

 

[MegaLurker]

So, do units with the highest base strength defend, or those with the best strength after bonuses? Or is it the highest percentage of strength left?

The unit with the highest combat odds always defends, which takes into account all bonuses applied except first strikes. Which, for whatever reason, the game does not calculate into the odds. This means the Drill line of promotions are better than indicated.

 

[SittinDown]

if you are getting SOD on Noble, you are definitely not expanding enough or building enough units.

I know I have a long-standing habit of building a high population small # of city empire with lots of buildings and trying to build all the wonders. it works pretty good on Warlord or below, and with a little bit of aggression you can win noble games most times that way. but if you refuse to conquer others and never use slavery, you're probably not going to be able to compete above noble, because slavery lets you expand fast early, and conquest lets you get more territory over the course of the game.

 

[Jivilov]

Slavery's bonus is halved when whipping Wonders, it's mainly used for buildings and units. Slavery is incredible once you get used to using it well! As everyone says, is king in this game. Slavery helps you turn into at a rate of 1 citizen to 30 , 45 with forge, etc.

Pardon the quibbles, but according to wikia early-game National Wonders get 22.5 hammers per whippee, and with a forge it's 7.5 extra, not 15 (25% bonus). But yeah, slavery is indispensable at higher levels. Took awhile to get used to it but now am at least halfway competitive on Emperor (Warlords). FWIW here's the wikia link:

http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Whipping_(Civ4)

 

[rah]

But really, here's what I do. You need city raider catapults, or trebuchets, and you need to bait the stack into a city. Just let the stack take the city with no resistance, then you take it out with the counterattack stack with city raider promos and take the city back next turn.

While I sometimes do this, it all depends on what the AI has. If you're playing K-mod, the AI seems to build more siege so you really want to take out some stacks in the field for flanking, since it will require fewer units to take out the larger stacks.
But yeah, sometimes I leave one AI unit in a city and let them reinforce to take advantage of CR promos.

 

[VCrakeV]

Thanks for the help everyone! Just wondering, how many stacks/units I should have in case of an attack. One stack per city, and another for the field? How many in city, how many on field?

 

[elitetroops]

Ideally you should have no units just in case of an attack. Handle diplo wisely and monitor the AI closely, then they won't take you by surprise and you have time to build up enough defenses if an AI stack is approaching. A lot of AI won't even consider attacking you if they are pleased towards you. Getting them to pleased is easy by sharing their religion, trading resources and perhaps gifting some techs. You can find the diplo thresholds for plotting war (along with tons of other valuable information) here.

Most of your cities will not be threatened at all. If an AI attacks, they go for the closest city. Cities further into your empire will never need more than one unit as military police (avoid unhappiness). You are playing noble level and talk about pults and HAs. At that time, an AI "stack of doom" is like 5-6 units, right? If you see the stack 3-4 turns in advance, that's enough to whip some defenders to keep it back. If they bring even one catapult, whip walls and they will spend several turns bombarding before attacking the city. This gives you even more time to bring your own units to the battlefield. Don't build walls just as a precaution, it is a waste of hammers if your city isn't attacked.

 

[VCrakeV]

Thanks elite! I did some research on the leaders in the game, and it turns out that Montezuma is an ass. Kept seeing stacks of around ten... Didn't bother counting.

 

[elitetroops]

Yeah, some leaders are bigger threats than others. Monty is one of them. What you can do is keep him busy fighting elsewhere. He is usually not a strong techer and you should have a tech lead on him. He can be bribed to war against other AI at cautious as long as he is pleased or lower towards the other AI. Bribe him to attack an AI in the other direction and he won't consider attacking you as long as he is fighting that war. You can even first declare yourself on an AI that is located behind him, then bribe him into the war. The bribe is cheaper if the target is already at war. Then you are both at war and you build up shared war diplo bonus, while you don't need to send any units to the war yourself. If Monty is between you and the target AI, the target AI would never send units through Monty's lands to attack you.

While Monty can plot war at pleased, he is much less likely to do so than at cautious, so improving your relations is still worth it.

Still, the best way to deal with an AI like Monty is to take him out. You said you don't want to fight offensive wars, which is fine. As long as you are aware that you give up a lot by avoiding those.

 

[Gumbolt]

Stacks of doom on Noble???? Stack of 10 on Noble is not that many units really.

Stack of 10 mostly catapults/axes and maybe a spear? The first 1-2 HA may die but the rest will eat up any Ai stack in the open not on a forest.