Here is how you should manage DRM :

[Akka]

I did read. That is a huge "AFAIK". Their code may be more complex/buggy/resource-intensive than Steam for all we know. Steam has been "working" now for a number of years. It may also be an exe. If not, it will run for every game with this particular DRM, which is worse than Steam. So your #1 is no different/better than Steam, imo.

Wow, I love how you go from "AFAIK there is nothing running beside the game" to "it's just like Steam".

#2, on the other hand, is great should Sega decide to do so. I hope they do.

If they don't, then as I said I'll eat my words. But as they already did it in the past, I'll take their word about it until then.

In any event, my point was that this system of DRM is something acceptable : it requires online authentification, but without intrusive software, and once the majority of sales has been done you'll enjoy the full property of the game without fear of it being unplayable because authent servers will be down.
It's "ok" in my book, and I doubt that Firaxis would have lost sales about it if it had used this, while they WILL lose a certain amount of sales because of Steam - for no gain.

 

[Olaf_The_Great]

It's a moot point anyway, DRM is becoming useless as no matter what it is it can be cracked.

Civ 5 is no different, infact it might even increase the amount of piraters.

I will still buy the game though, but probably wait a few months for the price to go down as unmodded Civ 5<Modded civ 4 most likely.

 

[eireksten]

In any event, my point was that this system of DRM is something acceptable : it requires online authentification, but without intrusive software, [...]

Without intrusive software? The fact that this DRM runs as part of the game instead of beside it doesn't make it any less intrusive. It just makes it more invisible to the user.

Uniloc Softanchor

Sounds pretty intrusive to me (read the "Best-of-Breed Reporting and Analysis" part, for instance).

Since Steamworks also helps the developers by providing a framework for online functionality, choosing that over this sounds very reasonable to me.

edit: Removing the DRM later on is nice, I'll give you that. But as you've already lived with it for so long, I don't see the great benefit (unless you're waiting until that happens with buying the game).

 

[deanej]

As long as it doesn't install something beyond the game's exe, it's not intrusive. Contrast that with SecuROM, which installs device drivers and modifies the Windows kernel.

 

[AZSportsFan]

Ever hear of torrents? Go to any torrent site and you can find thousands of books that people have purchased, unbound, scanned and then proceed to give away in pdf format. Often this occurs the same day the book goes on sale, just as with software.

The bound book wasn't transferred. They changed the medium of the book (paper to bytes). My response was to the poster who said that a game should be like a book and that it shouldn't have an EULA. I am sure that publishers are concerned about the stealing of their copyrighted materials.

 

[deanej]

The solution to piracy is to not take away consumers rights. Then again, the movie industry wanted to make recording TV shows and movies to VHS illegal. Thank god the courts put a stop to that.

Maybe society just isn't ready for digital distribution yet. But it's been shown again and again that piracy doesn't result in lost sales. If only people would listen!

 

[AZSportsFan]

The solution to piracy is to not take away consumers rights. Then again, the movie industry wanted to make recording TV shows and movies to VHS illegal. Thank god the courts put a stop to that.

Maybe society just isn't ready for digital distribution yet. But it's been shown again and again that piracy doesn't result in lost sales. If only people would listen!

Digital distribution and theft are two very different things. Do you think that the publishers would attempt DRM if the latter weren't prevalent? I find interesting the "theft doesn't cause material harm so it is ok" line of thinking. As soon as there are no honest people left to pay for the ride taken by the thiefs, then the industry is done.

Of course, if honest people stop purchasing games due to the DRM itself, then the result is the same. So you certainly have that if you wish to stop DRM. I have yet to personally be bothered by ANY DRM except for Spore on my kids' machine.

 

[Gelvan]

the point, which people, who fight for their right to DRM, somehow just don't get, is: that piracy is like sports for these pirates. the more difficult it is, the more "honor" they get in their circles. if you make absolutely no DRM, let's say you'd put it on your homepage for free or as shareware, it won't be interesting to crack at all. why bother? of course if you produce shareware, many people just don't pay. but: you forget that many many people DO pay. WinRAR or GetRight - I have no idea about their figures, but I don't believe, they suffer from their shareware policy.

sure enough, for a game, shareware would not work, instead just put a FAT manual in a box, maybe some colored charts, like it was standard in the 90ies and people WILL buy the game (even if available for free). enough people? hell yes! Microprose and all those heroes of the past, have not been killed by pirates (internet was quite new back in 1994), but been bought out by companies like EA and Ubisoft, exactly the same guys who nowadays want a total control with very strange DRM's like Stream. EA is directly responsible that there won't ever be a MoM2, don't forget this..

take a look at board games: it would be possible to "copy" a board game, but nobody does. because a board game you buy, is always better, than any copy of it could be.
why not take the same strategy for computer games: make the best product (including the best manual, charts, cards, and so on) and: everyone want's the original, even brother and sister. because they GET something that's beyond data. (I still have the woven map of Ultima IX on my wall.)

yeah I know, this won't be happening, we don't live in the 90ies anymore, but also without manuals and such: Star Dock, Malfador, to name two, prove, it is no problem to sell downloadable products without DRM. (aside of one time online registration to actually start the download, means you have to give a cd key once, which is no problem in my books, since afterwards you can copy it on a cd and put that somewhere safe).

we want good games
we don't want spyware (stream) and malware (securerom).
I want fat manuals, but I am a dreamer.

well, the big players in this industry don't understand the concept of trust and loyality. that's a shame, but what will one do? maybe I just buy a new computer for stream/civ5, so they can spy on nothing...
or maybe I pass. first I was soo excited, but somehow, I don't see the point: for the price of civ5+spyware I could buy a board game. and play that with friends. even if they don't own the same game. unbelievable...
nah, well, I will see. I am just a too big fan to stay away from civ5. but I for sure feel exploited somehow. they KNOW that all civ fans will buy this sooner or later, and they use this knowledge to Stream us. is that legal? maybe. is it good marketing? definitely not.

 

[deanej]

Do you think that the publishers would attempt DRM if the latter weren't prevalent?

Yes, I do. It's the single best way to control consumers. How else is the MPAA going to get us to buy the same movie twice to watch it on the iPad and on the TV?

I find interesting the "theft doesn't cause material harm so it is ok" line of thinking.

You honestly don't understand the point. The reason piracy doesn't result in lost sales is because THE PIRATES WOULD NOT BUY THE GAME IF THERE WAS NO WAY TO PIRATE IT. Here's a huge newsflash: there is such a thing as not buying something you want and going without because you feel it's too expensive. Pirates are in the group that feel the games cost more than they are worth. That or they are poor and could never afford the game. Only a small minority would actually buy the game, and many of those already do.

 

[Senethro]

t
we don't want spyware (stream) and malware (securerom).
I want fat manuals, but I am a dreamer.

well, the big players in this industry don't understand the concept of trust and loyality. that's a shame, but what will one do? maybe I just buy a new computer for stream/civ5, so they can spy on nothing...
or maybe I pass. first I was soo excited, but somehow, I don't see the point: for the price of civ5+spyware I could buy a board game. and play that with friends. even if they don't own the same game. unbelievable...

What do you think Steam is spying on?

 

[deanej]

In another thread it was shown that steam scans your computer and if it thinks it finds and illegal exe, connected to steam or not, it will shut down your account.

 

[Gelvan]

Some people wrote things about 'datamining' which as a word sounds quite unpleasant, don't you agree? there has been people who reported, that they lost connection with steam because steam *thought* they had a crack on their computer, which was not at all related to steam or the game they bought with steam and furthermore: it was no crack. I do not know if this all is true, but somehow I'm not too eager to find it out. well after all, I'm using facebook, I do write in forum's, so why not just give every information I can to a company I do not know, you might ask. somehow it's a good question - and somehow, I don't know, I might be to conservative for this kind of openminded 'I tell you everything about me-thing'. I can control what I write in facebook. I can't control if Steam does unpleasant things with my system. but anyway for me that is not the point. I just called it spyware because that's the term for things on your computer, that do things I do not know much about, which I don't like to have on that computer etc. maybe it's the wrong word. the reason why I don't like steam on my computer is that I want to play civ5 and not steam-civ5. the offline version only works if you have updated everything, and as long as it isn't updated, you can't play (a bit like the windows auto updater but permanent). and after all I just don't see any reason why they not just make a steam version plus a non-steam version with good old traditional cd key. sometimes I get a feeling, that companies are more afraid of their customers, than willing to sell them what they want...

 

[Senethro]

In another thread it was shown that steam scans your computer and if it thinks it finds and illegal exe, connected to steam or not, it will shut down your account.

Oh, it was shown was it? It wasn't some guys blog talking about how "his friend" who is a totally reliable source saying he got his steam access cancelled for an unfair reason. If it was shown then I'll be glad to read where.

Some people wrote things about 'datamining' which as a word sounds quite unpleasant, don't you agree? there has been people who reported, that they lost connection with steam because steam *thought* they had a crack on their computer, which was not at all related to steam or the game they bought with steam and furthermore: it was no crack. I do not know if this all is true, but somehow I'm not too eager to find it out. well after all, I'm using facebook, I do write in forum's, so why not just give every information I can to a company I do not know, you might ask. somehow it's a good question - and somehow, I don't know, I might be to conservative for this kind of openminded 'I tell you everything about me-thing'. I can control what I write in facebook. I can't control if Steam does unpleasant things with my system. but anyway for me that is not the point. I just called it spyware because that's the term for things on your computer, that do things I do not know much about, which I don't like to have on that computer etc. maybe it's the wrong word. the reason why I don't like steam on my computer is that I want to play civ5 and not steam-civ5. the offline version only works if you have updated everything, and as long as it isn't updated, you can't play (a bit like the windows auto updater but permanent). and after all I just don't see any reason why they not just make a steam version plus a non-steam version with good old traditional cd key. sometimes I get a feeling, that companies are more afraid of their customers, than willing to sell them what they want...

Its not about being open or being conservative, its about not letting unfounded fear of something new get in the way of enjoying Civ5. Take the data mining thread, if you bothered to actually read the links the OP gave you'd see that the data they were collecting were on the usage of their service and the opt-in hardware survey. Things Steam uses to improve their service and benefit you.

Given the incredible hatred some people have for Steam, if Steam really did scan your computer, someone would have caught it by now and Valve would have been crucified. The Anti-Steam crowd are really ascribing Saturday morning cartoon villain motivations to Valve, that they have evil secret plots that won't benefit them at all. Valve want your business, they're not going to illegally access your computer or cancel your subscriptions. Thats not a good business model.

 

[The_J]

Its not about being open or being conservative, its about not letting unfounded fear of something new get in the way of enjoying Civ5.

Fear makes you aware of possible hazard.
Don't neglect your fear.

Edit: I have another hyperbole .
Its not about being open or being conservative, its about not letting unfounded fear of aids or so get in the way of enjoying sex.
Great advise .

2. edit: Compare steam to aids: Done.

The Anti-Steam crowd are really ascribing Saturday morning cartoon villain motivations to Valve

In everything lies a little truth...

 

[Gelvan]

they're not going to illegally access your computer or cancel your subscriptions.

ok, prove it what about legally access your computer and cancel your subscriptions?
you see after all it's a bit the question what you believe.
they will quite surely have my business anyway, because they publish a civilization game.
still, I don't like to be forced to use something that might or might not be packed with evil motivations ^^

to me it feels a bit like: "ah, you pay, good, download this, why are you not online, you have to update your game" - "might I stay with this versi." - "you have to wait for the already begun download to end" - "but I don't wa.." - "an error has occured, please contact customer service" - I mean hello? this is MY game! "no it isn't, you only have a licence". er what? "there is an exe we don't know nothing about, your licence is terminated, thank you for shopping with us"...

small companies can sell products without steam, or with-and-without steam, so why can't take2?
if you start asking questions WHY someone does or does not do something in particular, you will find many answers. most of them are assumptions others are outright superstitious, and somewhere there is evidence, proof, and so on.

which truth are you looking for? why do you support steam? because you like it's features, or because you know for SURE that everything the "steam-heaters" ever said, is not true? and why should I believe you?

complicated thing: trust.
and even more complicated: the feelings of possible customers.
get trust and give trust: get customers.
take2's approach is not very wise. (or maybe it is, because that way they get more sales from all the steam-gamers who buy about anything their program has to offer, while the civ fans are hooked anyway.. why only get money from fans, if you also could get money from passbyers?)

 

[tom2050]

Oh, it was shown was it? It wasn't some guys blog talking about how "his friend" who is a totally reliable source saying he got his steam access cancelled for an unfair reason. If it was shown then I'll be glad to read where.

If you place a Non-Steam game to run via Steam; it seems to check the exe file and shut the account down for Valve thinking it was an illegal program (guilty until proven innocent). We could all yell 'Paranoid' and 'Conspiracy' that you think a webpage is lying about such a thing, but I doubt they were; the article said that Steam did reactivate his account eventually after he was able to contact them and explain the situation. The guy even liked Steam (loved it; seems to still love it).

It was not a blog either, it was similar to a PC Game Magazine Interview type of thing. If you think he's lying, then do you think 2K, Valve, and Firaxis are lying about everything they say. Do you have a reliability meter that you use and go by?

Furthermore, a blow against Steam's Nanny-State Servers:
Blizzard: DRM a 'losing battle'
starcraft-ii-beta-extended-blizzard-talks-drm-solution
Even Valve thinks DRM is dumb, just not it's own controversial DRM

Blizzard has gone 'You connect once for Battle.net, and that is the extent of DRM; never again does it do anything'. These are things that should be supported.