Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

[apenpaap]

Hehe, I love the idea of naming the hero Morpheus. To be honest, I'm actually not quite sure whether it's possible to make settled great people in worldbuilder... That might be a problem with my quest reward for the AI civs, come to think of it.

By the way, I've been thinking on how Ceridwen's schemes to destroy the world might intersect with your mega plot later on... One idea that comes to mind is Ceridwen trying to convince people that since they're (allegedly) in the vault of the god of lies, any way out is really only going to be a way back in; and that therefore the only real way out of the vault is to destroy it. Maybe we could flavour the Prophecy of Ragnarok like this, for example: it's not a prophecy of the end of times, but a pact to cause it. And every unit that follows this pact therefore commits random evil acts in life (hence the increase of the AC) in the hopes of them all adding up to destroy Esus' vault.

 

[Calavente]

I'm pretty sure you can add settled great people in cities using WB.... (in the city screen)
however otherwise, for the AI : give them wanes. they would thus settle as a GP (but you have no control of the kind of GP) (I think the wane can settle even if you are not sidar... gonna have to check that)

For Verdian : give the GP, quit WB, settle him, save... (well, I know, that's obvious)

as a rule, remember that if you ask Verdian to settle the GP himself.. he might decide not to. (despite angering the god)

 

[Lplate]

By the way, I've been thinking on how Ceridwen's schemes to destroy the world might intersect with your mega plot later on... One idea that comes to mind is Ceridwen trying to convince people that since they're (allegedly) in the vault of the god of lies, any way out is really only going to be a way back in; and that therefore the only real way out of the vault is to destroy it. Maybe we could flavour the Prophecy of Ragnarok like this, for example: it's not a prophecy of the end of times, but a pact to cause it. And every unit that follows this pact therefore commits random evil acts in life (hence the increase of the AC) in the hopes of them all adding up to destroy Esus' vault.

One of the questions that has come up a few times in my looking for lore on Esus is why he and some of the other Evil Gods are working with Agares and Ceridwen to destroy the world when it is not in their interest. I think you might have hit on a way for Ceridwen to get Esus to work for her.

Here's a few thoughts on how I think Esus thinks:
Wherever there is Truth and Trust, Esus will try to spread Doubt and Mistrust. It's the same to him whether people believe the Lie or refuse to believe the Truth.
Apart from spreading doubt and mistrust, Esus just enjoys lying. Where there are side-effects; passionate murders, missed opportunities, destroyed relationships, these just provide another way of measuring how good/powerful the lie was in the first place. As such, he provides a feeder role for many of the Gods, his lies provoking them to commit the sins that damn them to someone else's hell.
He's the kind of person who doesn't rob a bank for the money but does it to see if he can get away with it. This is the real motivation behind my idea for him trying to steal souls from the other Hells.
Esus is not too pushed about accumulating lots of souls like Mammon. He does not need to develop lots of serious heavy weight demons to wage war on reality. He can accomplish what he wants using lesser minions. If he needs to, he could always redirect a demon of another God on a "secret mission".

Ceridwen challenging Esus to try to persuade people that they need to destroy the real Erebus to escape would appeal to his character. The massive scale of destruction that follows from people believing his lie, just proves how great a lie it is.

The theory of the lie could be something along the lines:
Each hell is focussed on one Precept. By repeatedly sinning in the manner of a different Vault, one weakens the Precept within the Vault one is in, allowing the boundaries between this and the next Vaults to be broken. Obviously, one only has a chance at breaking into the next door neighbours' Vaults but take it one step at a time and ultimately you escape from all of them. Good works are a waste of time (for the moment) because the Vault of Esus is so far removed from any of the Good Gods' Vaults, that there isn't a border between them to be broken. Later on, after we reach Mulcarn's Vault, we should try some good deeds.
- this gives a bit of a reason for sinning more and also provides an explanation why the appearance of hell terrain is a good thing to be welcomed by the deceived.

 

[apenpaap]

I think the reason the evil gods are working with Agares and Ceridwen are:
Bhall: Pertially because she's in love with Agares and he wants to destroy the world, partially as revenge towards a world that considers her evil, and partially because the idea of the entire world bathing in flames must seem nice to an evil godess of fire (after all, sacrifices to her are burnt too, so in essence Armageddon would mean the entire world is sacrificed to her)
Camulos: What could be more fun to the god of war and chaos than the entire world gone mad and slaughtering each other? And of course his archangel gets to take a vacation to Erebus at 90 AC.
Aeron: I know least about him of the evil gods, but my guess is that as the god of hate, it could simply be his own hate overwhelming him, like Agares is often described as wallowing in his despair.
Mammon: It may seem counter-intuitive for a god of greed to partake in destroying the world, but greed is after all not an emotion that looks far ahead, it is concerned with immediate gain. I think Mammon just wants as many people as possible to be sinners and as many as possible to die, since they'd go to his hell (after a while in Mulcarn's, usually), and collecting all those souls is of course exactly what a god of greed would love, despite the long term consequences.
Esus: I really don't know what makes him cooperate with the other evil gods to cause Armaggedon in normal FFH lore. Maybe he doesn't; after all he has a seperate religion that doesn't increase AC and doesn't seem part of the Ashen Veil pantheon. But I think your analysis of Esus' motives is very spot-on (he seems to just enjoy lying, like Elim Garak from Deep Space Nine, who had brilliant quotes like "The truth is usually just an excuse for lack of imagination." and "Lying is a skill like any other. And if you want to maintain a level of excellence, you have to practice constantly." ), and good people trying to destroy Erebus because they believe it is actually his vault would appeal to him a great deal.
Mulcarn: I don't think he's ever been mentioned to really be involved with the plan to destroy Erebus, other than as an accessory because of his vault helping the others.

Of course, that's just my take on it. Anyway, the theory of the lie sounds good to me. I'm guessing the appearance of hell terrain would then be viewed as a gradual return to Camulos' hell, since its landscape has been mentioned to be gruesomely scarred by the eternal wars there?

 

[Randomness]

Sorry, RL has gotten busy. I'm going to have to leave this.

 

[Elder Methyl]

So, can we start the next turn now?

 

[Lplate]

We need Verdian to tell us what happened in the first 50 turns and give us his save game before we can start the next God turn.

 

[apenpaap]

Well, it seems Verdian didn't manage to reach Knowledge of the Ether in time, though he beelined it. I'm guessing the AI civs that made it probably had a second city to help boost their research, got it from a goodie hut, or just had a bit of an advantage for starting with Ancient Chants. Therefore, since he tried his best and is busy researching KoE I'm considering rewarding him anyway (in which case I would also give the same reward to AIs who are researching it at the moment). After all, he did take the first steps towards knowledge of magic. What do you think, is this a good idea?

 

[Derf]

Personally I'd be more inclined to withhold the reward. You set a goal, he didn't get it - rewarding him anyway doesn't seem to make logical sense.
On a different note, I'll be making an intervention soon. I'm working on the details still, since I haven't decided how it will relate to the various other plots and plans in place for the moment.
Will let you know when I take the save, if no one else has it by then.

 

[Lplate]

Well, it seems Verdian didn't manage to reach Knowledge of the Ether in time, though he beelined it. I'm guessing the AI civs that made it probably had a second city to help boost their research, got it from a goodie hut, or just had a bit of an advantage for starting with Ancient Chants. Therefore, since he tried his best and is busy researching KoE I'm considering rewarding him anyway (in which case I would also give the same reward to AIs who are researching it at the moment). After all, he did take the first steps towards knowledge of magic. What do you think, is this a good idea?

You could go with a smaller reward now (not sure what) or you could voice your displeasure that he has failed when others have succeeded, then follow up with a demand that he uses KoE as soon as it's researched - Mage Guild or try to force him further along that research branch.

Ceridwen doesn't really strike me as a Goddess that rewards those who fail her but then when I tried beelining for KoE from the initial Kuriotates setup, I couldn't get it within 50 turns. Simplest thing is to give the promised reward at the end of the next session (to him and any other civs that get KoE) as Verdian'll definitely have KoE by then.

---

Does anyone object to making Aerie the founding city of the Dragon Cult religion?

 

[Derf]

Got no problems with that myself.
Got the save, will edit this post with it when I've made my intervention with all the details. Have patience, my divine friends - I shouldn't take long.

Edit: And here we go.

Interventions made:
Two barbarian Hellhounds (w/ Orcish removed) spawned onto the one-tile forested isle east of the Kuriotate capital.

For the full idea of what this is for any why, see the next Camulos post in the main DI thread.

Save attached.

 

[Lplate]

Got it

-----
Interventions
Ashton - Replaced with City Ruins. Two Held Barbarian Mistforms placed there. (Could be an issue for the nearby Sidar city when these get released in 50 turns. Dagda might want to beef up their defences).
Ashton Book - Gave Fishing Technology (seeing as Verdian specifically mentioned the Maelstrom)
Palisade quest - gave the Warrior closest to Aerie (i.e. 2 tiles west) the City Garrison 1 promotion. Didn't seem right to give it to the Adept.
Dragon Cult - Made Aerie the founding city of the Dragon Cult
Svartalfar - gave them a Pagan temple in Thariss
Malakim - gave them a 15 boost in their diplomatic perceptions of the Svartalfar (those Svartalfar diplomats are really smooth).

Other Features - no-one in Dundorchadas or the Midnight Jungle (not applying the effects to animals), so no change.

-----

That's Esus finished. Someone else can take the save now. I'll update the blurb on the story thread.

 

[apenpaap]

You make a good point that he did fail my quest, and so rewarding him would be an odd thing to do. However, it seems it was an impossible quest. I think I'll take a look at the save later, and see how far he got into researching KoE (if he's more than half done, I might give him the reward after all).

And it is also a good point that Ceridwen doesn't seem like one to reward failure. However, if it allows her to present herself as a benevolent goddess and get them to serve her I could see her do that. (Also because, if her plan succeeds, they will get punished for their failures by the apocalypse anyway)

Yet letting the reward wait until next session also seems a good idea...

 

[Derf]

A compromise then - give him a kind of 'second place' reward for the effort. Not nearly as useful as the actual reward would have been, but still something for trying.
Then when he actually researches it, give him something else that will cover the difference, essentially giving him the original reward overall.

... If that makes sense.

 

[apenpaap]

It does make a lot of sense... But I'm not sure how to give him half a Great Scientist. XD If it's possible I could give him a settled normal scientist instead and later upgrade it to a great one, but I don't think it's possible, plus the added great scientist points this early might actually make it a better reward overall. If he hadn't already built an Elder Council I might give it to him instead... What if I gave him the settled Great Scientist, but made his city lose some population or improvements as a way of lowering the power of the reward? (Maybe the person Ceridwen gave such a great brain was a big farmer and got this "upgrade" right before harvesting season? And then, when he suddenly woke up with a thousand ideas in his head, immediately moved to the capitol to offer his services to the state; but with no-one to tend to his land, the harvest failed and a small famine was caused?)

 

[Elder Methyl]

Spoiler :

Edit Request: Can the Island just east of Aerie be labeled 'Swanmay Isle'?

 

[Lplate]

Spoiler :

Edit Request: Can the Island just east of Aerie be labeled 'Swanmay Isle'?

Do you mean the one with Hell hounds on it?

 

[Derf]

If it doesn't interfere with the two Hellhounds I put there for the quest I gave him, go ahead.

 

[Lplate]

Elder Methyl,

The Hell Hounds will be there for a while as they're twice as strong as Verdian's current units. Will their presence clash with your plans for Swanmay Island (or are they integral to it)?

Do you still want this island renamed or would you prefer a new island a little further out that Verdian can discover with his new boat?

 

[Derf]

If necessary I can move the Hellhounds, but I'd rather not. I know they're considerably more powerful, and that he needs Amphib or Water Walking to do anything about them even then, but as mentioned in the main thread Camulos actually expects him to appeal for some aid in the matter.