Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

@Abenpaap, Once significant numbers of people think that Erebus is Shadowfel, there's no way for someone to prove it one way or the other with information from within Erebus. The only way for a definitive answer is to look at the position of the world the characters are in relative to other worlds. I.e. Only those who've mastered Dimensional magic can give a certain answer, all other answers are based on faith.
This provides a reason for Weyoun to push for research into necromancy. Once the research is complete, Weyoun and his associates can claim their monopoly on the truth and announce authoritatively whether they're in Erebus or hell. If he says it's hell, no one else is really in a position to challenge it (except with, "We'll never believe you, no matter what evidence you say you have."). If he does this, the stage should be well set for the Pact of Ragnarok, or Ashen Veil.

That's a good point; users of Dimensional magic could disprove the lie or confirm it. If the greatest users of Dimensional magic in the world claim they are in Esus' vault, that would make almost everyone believe the lie, except those who either take it on faith (as priests of some other gods will likely be claiming they are in Erebus) or those who actually realise Ceridwen is tricking people. I suppose they would begin spreading the story that any way out will be a lie, and that the only way to truly get out would be to destroy the vault around the same time.

By the way, when are you planning to begin spreading the lie over Erebus? I'm looking forward to it, hehe.

(By the way, it's 'apenpaap', without capitals and with a p :p )
 
I forgot about that :D
but Eldermethyl may give orc slaying to this unit even if he has less than 10 xp ... no ? o_O ?
well that was to say :
-"demon slaying" promotion for staying 9turns...
-a settler for staying 1 more turn.
it seems unbalanced ....

(and demon slaying only for "learning each moon a way to fight the evil gods" seems cheap)

a settler for staying 9 turns... and demon slaying for staying a further month... would have been much more coherent.
it doesn't change the result... but feels more logical


I'll keep that in mind.
 
settler for staying 9 turns... and demon slaying for staying a further month... would have been much more coherent.
it doesn't change the result... but feels more logical

It's a moot discussion but I thought you could look at it that Sirona required more effort for combat promos (conflict) than a settler (peaceful), as she's the Goddess of Serenity. To me the story made sense.

By the way, when are you planning to begin spreading the lie over Erebus? I'm looking forward to it, hehe.

Turn 150: story about Morpheus's return and preaching about being in hell
Turn 200: trigger war
Turn 230 (delayed spoiler); Witnesses spread

So a few will believe Erebus is hell in turn 150. A lot will doubt the nature of the world by turn 250.

To speed it up by 50 turns, I'd have to put in a delayed spoiler now to deal with the return of Morpheus (and place the Calabim city near BW).
 
That implies that you're okay with me going ahead with all of the storylines featuring the Bannor cult, as that is supposed to be happening below Junil and Sabathiel's radar.

I'll do a rework of the draft Junil/Esus meeting, referencing some of the specific Compact breaches that have already occurred. I think that Junil dismissing Esus works fine for a first meeting as Esus would have to work on Junil for a while to have any chance of persuading him.

You're doing an excellent story so I'll trust that anything you suggest is a good idea and run with it. However I will argue against your attempts to seduce me.
 
As for Sirona sending Angels down to Erebus, what about having them be ones that voluntarily chose to fall, thus lessening the Compact breach?
 
I'm not sure about the finer details of FFH lore - should it be Junil or Sabathiel who talks to Cernunnos?


Aid could be in the form of FoL nations allying with the Bannor, you might place strong barbarian animals at weak spots of enemies (or provide them as units to the Bannor), convert/place ancient forests in useful spots, other terrain upgrades (jungle -> forest), we could think of others...

Ravus Sol (Cernunnos) - as an ally, could you please convert the jungles of Bannor lands to forests/ancient forests?

It wouldn't make sense for me to do it as it definitely is your sphere, not mine.

I have to do my thing to the save soon...

I'm also thinking of warning Verade against starting fires around the Bannor. Comments?

I was thinking I would wait until the next update. There is already an abundance of story threads Verdian doesn't need any more. It looks like he might not grab it this week. But that's no cause to throw more at him.

Junil Lore
It could be either, as Cernunnos was once an Archangel and now a God so both would interact with him.

However Junil is the god of Law. Thus he obeys the compact completely. You can change this if you wish, but he does most of his interfering via Sabathial who leads the Bannor. They get around this by having him rule via proxy, the council for the bannor meet with Sabathiel in a vault beneath the capital. The Archangel does not "technically" step foot on Erebus, his council comes to him instead.

So while Junil could know about Bhall's intervention I'm not sure how you would warn Lord Dannalin not to do it. As Junil does not intervene. It's pretty obvious you would be ticked if they did do something. Perhaps pass word through the ambassadorial Bannor Lady currently stationed there? *shrug*

I think for the next update I will write a scene of Cernunnos talking to Sabathiel. By then the Fellowship of the Leaves religion will have been founded and Cernunnos will offer to influence a legion of fawns to spread the religion around. That will allow the Bannor to worship the more lawful side of nature until the Order Religion gets founded. So all their trees will convert themselves. (I'll change the jungle to forests as well when I do it, that way they can also change naturally to Ancient forests.) If the Bannor continue to worship the leaves religion I'll plant forests on top of improvements like mines and towns.

That way I can link all the religious stuff together. The Vampires founding the religion, with the help of Yavin. The bannor setting up a more lawful version with help from the fawns and priests arriving from Calabim and Kuriotate homelands in the Dragon Clan to argue over the interpretation of nature.

-

As for Sirona sending Angels down to Erebus, what about having them be ones that voluntarily chose to fall, thus lessening the Compact breach?

Actually I think Angels ARE allowed looking at things more closely. Especially as you are using the angels within your own "sphere" of magically influence. But defensive wise they could not stop a mortal being under divine protection of your peers. Making them willingly fallen angels would work and could be interesting if they join up with the Elohim who are also protectors of the holy places in your name. But it's entirely up to you. I'm just making Cernunnos uppity about people breaking the Spirit of the compact as well as the legal words.

The Compact was originally Cassiel's idea, but he abhors the results. The most offensive portions are those that allow them to continue the war in Creation using humans (and other intelligent beings) as proxies and those allowing the gods to claim ownership over the souls of those who served their precepts in life. It treats intelligent beings with free will not as equals, children, or even pets to be cared for, but as tool from which to extract power. There are virtually no limits on what a god may to for or to those whom he owns, so long as they respect the "property" of their peers. Gods may not enter creation, but their angels and demons still can so long as they limit their supernatural powers to directly effecting only those their masters own. Mortals are completely free to abuse their fellow men in the name of their beliefs, and may be ordered and threatened into doing so. Angels to choose to fall are free to do so, becoming like mortals.

I also found this by Kael the creator;

Many good points. The only one I know for sure is that the archangels did not "sign" the compact (so Cernunnos/Cassiel/Hyborem/Basium didn't agree to it). In fact Cassiel and Basium abandoned the meeting before it was complete. Whether that makes them immune to its effects or if Cernunnos is immune to the godslayer or not is unknown.

We do know that the archangels are a lot more directly active on Erebus than the gods are, especially in being able to physically enter it. If this is allowed by the compact or if they are ignoring that aspect is also unknown. Many archangles seem to do it, of all alignments, and we dont have any indication of a punishment for their actions. But on the other side Sabathiel seems intent not to enter Erebus because "he is following the strictest possible interpetation of the compact". But we know Junil's angels can be a bit dogmatic.
 
Looks like Verdian missed the save this weekend. Must be busy or something came up. To help facilitate thinking for the next update I'll post a spoiler containing what sort of things happened when I played 50 turns on my most recent save to check it was free of bugs;

Spoiler :

  • Amurites destroyed the barbarian city on the blood coast very quickly. Razed to the ground.
  • Calabim found the Fellowship of the Leaves
  • Calabim hunter meets the Kuriotates and makes demands quickly (map)
  • Sidar worship Kilmorph runes religion
  • Sidar expand heavily to the south
  • Sidar cities get Dragon Cult spread to them and go into riots now and then.
  • Lanun and Calabim declare war on the Orc Clan of Embers
  • Bannor expand aggressively eastward


All in all I think it was the right decision to give him another two potential settlements just to grab some border land.
 
Am I the last person who needs to fix up the last save for version to use (adding the Orc slaying promotion to some units)?

If you haven't done it yet then yes. There isn't a waiting list, you can do it whenever. Although considering Verdian was supposed to take it on friday he could appear and take the most recent save at any time.
 
Slight redraft of the Junil/Esus meeting. This is supposed to take place where the first part of Sphener's Pedia story is set.
Spoiler :

Junil's Vault
In a room of perfect order, where every angelic action is mirrored in total symmetry, this angel's presence was discordant. All of the other angels turned as one to look at Sabathiel standing on the topmost step. He began his descent. On the next step, he was Sphener. On each following step he was a different angel until he reached the bottom and Junil faced himself.
"What do You want, false one?" one roared
"I just came for a friendly chat.", the other purred.
"We have nothing in common and nothing to say to each other."
"Those differences are precisely why I wanted to talk to You. You're as straight as an arrow and always will be. I used to take pride in how all our brothers and sisters would be on guard when talking to me, as they tried to spot the lies and guess at my thoughts. Now, they're all at it.
Lugus whispers with Sirona. Ceridwen plays the others like pawns. I wouldn't be surprised if even Cernunnos was making secret alliances. I came to You because I know where You stand. Of all of my brothers and sisters You're the only one I can count on not to break the Compact."
"Am I supposed to be able to count on You, Oathbreaker?"
"I don't break oaths. I tend not to make promises or oaths because people don't believe me when I do. But yes, You can count on me, Youknow where I stand, I'm the God of Deception. At least, I'm upfront about it and staying true to my Precept. When the others break their word, that's just wrong."
"You corrupted Your Precept when you Fell."
"My Precept is what it is and I can not deny it or fight against it. You are the God of Oaths, which makes You the one God I can still believe. I'm here because even if all You can say is something I don't want to hear, at least I know You'll mean it."
"I want you to leave my Vault."
"You see, I believe You. We know where we stand with one another. You know where to find me." As he spoke, one of the Junils faded til he was little more than a shadow and then, that was gone.


The follow up would be a meeting with Sabathiel. His vault is described in his Pedia entry.
Spoiler :

Torrelerial (almost)
He looked down on His city. It looked glorious at sunset. He knew that even in this city, those that broke the Law, became more active over the next few hours. Not for the first time, He felt the burden of the restrictions placed upon Him.
"It's a splendid view," a voice whispered at His ear. Instantly, His sword was in His hand with the blade across a masked figure's neck.
"I hadn't realised that you'd got the Godslayer."
Sabathiel put away the weapon. He always knew the right thing to do. Threatening someone with a weapon they knew wouldn't harm them would just be an exercise in futility.
Esus swaggered. His strides quickly moving Him across the room so He was forced to turn again and again.
Waving his right hand in a circle, he casually opined, "Like I said, great views but really, it's quite a small box, especially to contain One as powerful as you."
"This is the place I should be."
"Of course, of course. It must be wonderful to have a perfect sense of One's place in the universe. What was it that prophet of Sirona said?, 'Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.'. I wonder did She compose that for him or did he come up with it himself."
He rested his left hand and the face of His mask against the door.
"So Torrelorial is just on the other side of this door. I can't remember the last time I was this close to Erebus."
"I'm sure you can remember but it's to be expected that you lie over such trivial details."
The masked face turned towards Sabathiel. Sabathiel knew that behind that mask was a smile.
Esus continued his tour if the room and sat down on the carved rock Sabathiel lay on when His mind roamed.
"It does lack in creature comforts. You don't need them though. You've everything you need to do everything you need to do. A place for nothing and nothing in it's place."
"Esus, We both know you didn't finally visit here to give me advice on the decorations."
"Right, as always. I came to seek advice, not to give it. Some friends of mine signed a contract. Other parties to the contract are breaking it's terms. Can my friends consider the contract finished."
"The Compact is an agreement between Gods and . . ."
"I didn't mention the Compact."
"Yet, you speak of it."
"The Compact is a good analogy for my friends' case. Are there degrees to which a contract can be broken? At what stage do you have to accept that a deal has no meaning any more and just move on?"


@Bad_Player,
As you can see, in these meetings, Esus isn't specifically asking Junil to do anything. He's just sowing seeds of doubt about the other Gods and the Compact. I tend to focus more on Esus's message, so let me know if you want either Junil or Sabathiel to respond differently at this stage.

You could follow it up whichever way seemed most appropriate for Junil. This could be discussions between Junil and Sabathiel on how the Compact must be maintained, approaching Esus for an alliance on some issue or anything in between.

Junil could always confront Esus when it appears that he's let arch angel Iaegus loose on Erebus as part of the Mega Plot (turn 200). Esus would use this as an opportunity to plead innocence and point the finger at Mammon. It would also make Junil one of the Gods that would know that Iaegus at BW is a fake.
 
Instantly, His sword was in His hand with the blade across a masked figure's neck.
"I hadn't realised that you'd got the Godslayer."

Sorry the deadpan might have gone over my head slightly. So Esus is goading Sabatheil because he doesn't have the Godslayer right?

The meeting seems fine, but its down to Bad Player how Junil and His Archangel are interpreted. Personally I always saw them as the strong silent types but you can go a number of ways.

When are you planning to have the Esus/Sabathiel exchange? as I might try to add in the Cernunnos/Sabathiel stuff at the same time if its next update. May as well try to keep the story chaos to a minimum.
 
It turns out that there is no orc slaying promotion in this mod... Any ideas on a different reward for killing barbarians? I was hoping that it would be indirectly bad against the Clan of Embers too...

Otherwise I might forget the quest anyway...
 
Actually I think Angels ARE allowed looking at things more closely. Especially as you are using the angels within your own "sphere" of magically influence. But defensive wise they could not stop a mortal being under divine protection of your peers. Making them willingly fallen angels would work and could be interesting if they join up with the Elohim who are also protectors of the holy places in your name. But it's entirely up to you. I'm just making Cernunnos uppity about people breaking the Spirit of the compact as well as the legal words.

The Compact was originally Cassiel's idea, but he abhors the results. The most offensive portions are those that allow them to continue the war in Creation using humans (and other intelligent beings) as proxies and those allowing the gods to claim ownership over the souls of those who served their precepts in life. It treats intelligent beings with free will not as equals, children, or even pets to be cared for, but as tool from which to extract power. There are virtually no limits on what a god may to for or to those whom he owns, so long as they respect the "property" of their peers. Gods may not enter creation, but their angels and demons still can so long as they limit their supernatural powers to directly effecting only those their masters own. Mortals are completely free to abuse their fellow men in the name of their beliefs, and may be ordered and threatened into doing so. Angels to choose to fall are free to do so, becoming like mortals.

I also found this by Kael the creator;

Ah, good.
 
It turns out that there is no orc slaying promotion in this mod... Any ideas on a different reward for killing barbarians? I was hoping that it would be indirectly bad against the Clan of Embers too...

Otherwise I might forget the quest anyway...

You could give them courage, the spell effect of Law I. That way they are immune to fear and heal quicker. Not much, but a sign that they are experienced in combat and under your sphere of influence slightly?

Maybe the Sentry promotion as well? (+1 visual range) To show that they have patrolled the barbarian lands and are used to keeping an eye out for things?

Those are my main two ideas...
 
Sorry the deadpan might have gone over my head slightly. So Esus is goading Sabatheil because he doesn't have the Godslayer right?

The meeting seems fine, but its down to Bad Player how Junil and His Archangel are interpreted. Personally I always saw them as the strong silent types but you can go a number of ways.

When are you planning to have the Esus/Sabathiel exchange? as I might try to add in the Cernunnos/Sabathiel stuff at the same time if its next update. May as well try to keep the story chaos to a minimum.

Regarding the Godslayer, the way I saw it was:
  • Sabathiel is used to dealing with Bannor mortals, with all their failings and knowing everything about what they're thinking (based on his Pedia story) and so has not been surprised in a very long time
  • As the God of Deception, Shadows, etc., Esus is extremely good at sneaking up on people.

Sabathiel's immediate response on having an intruder in His vault whisper in His ear is to defensively draw His weapon. Esus goads him about the weapon because it is not the Godslayer. The fact that Sabathiel drew it, showed that He hadn't realised Esus had entered His vault until after the whisper. Once He knows it's a God, He sheathes His weapon.

I agree with the strong, silent type image for both J and S, saying only that which needs to be said. On the other hand, I didn't want to just have a total Esus monologue. I'm happy to change everything they say based on Bad_Player's preferences.

I could do both meetings next god turn. Originally, I was thinking Junil next God turn and Sabathiel the following one to show that working on Junil to try and break the Compact is not an overnight job.
If Esus meets Junil just after Cernunnos leaves, it adds a bit more meaning to the line about Cernunnos and secret alliances. Instead of being a lucky punt in the dark by Esus, it's a planned remark by Esus, i.e. As Junil is behaving the same way as the untrustworthy Gods, He himself has already become untrustworthy.
On the other hand, if Cernunnos arrives to talk to Sabathiel while Esus is there, it gives Esus opportunity to try and work on Cernunnos's self-doubts ("How lucky am I, this is a veritable flock of arch angels."). Not sure of the correct word for a group of angels (choir?), instead of flock, Esus might use murder, as in murder of crows.
Just rereading those last two paragraphs, a neater approach might be to have the Sabathiel meeting next turn, with Cernunnos arriving at the end. Then, when Esus meets Junil on the following God turn, He does know that Junil and Cernunnos are in negotiations.
 
@Bad_Player,
One of the first ways Esus could help Junil is to encourage prejudices against the Orcs of Rotfang and discourage war against the Bannor. The draft overheard conversation below makes most sense if the Amurites raze the Orc settlement as in Ravus_Sol's test game and Verdian tries to fulfil Bhall's quest to start forest fires on Bannor land.

Spoiler :

"Some of those Orcs were at my stall again today. I didn't see it but I swear they stole more of my veg."
"I don't know why Dallarin let 'em stay."
"Yeah, those Amurites 'ad the right idea, raze 'em all to the ground."
"Once an Orc, always an Orc, that's what my Da says."
"You can't beat the barbarian out of 'em. That's the problem."
"I dunno. I think we should test that theory." Heh, Heh.
"I've heard that some of those Ratfangers 'ave been trying to start fires over in the Bannor land."
"That's the kind of barbaric, Orc stupidity that starts wars."
"The only fire that needs to be started is one in that Rotfang."
"Yeah, they like fire so much, let's just give 'em what they want. It's only neighbourly." Heh, Heh.

OOC
Spoiler :

Quest
Avoid war with the Bannor.
a) If you fail to avoid war with the Bannor and do not have a Dungeon (in which you deliberately lock up anyone speaking about taking revenge on the Orcs) then you need to permanently maintain a troop presence in Rotfang to protect it. Otherwise it will be reduced down Enclave -> Town, town - > village, village -> hamlet, hamlet -> cottage, cottage -> smoke on each God turn that it has been left unprotected. It will devolve one step per war with the Bannor on each God turn (i.e. this will be a permanent problem and will get worse if you have multiple wars with the Bannor).

 
One thing that strikes me as odd in that bit is Esus actually appearing himself. I vaguely remember the ending of that scenario with the war between the elves when you win as the Svartalfar; apparently there's a whole bunch of creatures/people/demons/whatever they were who each think they're the real Esus and have deceived all the others into believing they're Esus. Whether I remember this correctly or not, it seems odd for Esus to actually personally appear, directly showing he's Esus. That's the truth, after all. I'm not quite sure how you could do that bit of story without the real Esus appearing there, though.
 
One thing that strikes me as odd in that bit is Esus actually appearing himself. I vaguely remember the ending of that scenario with the war between the elves when you win as the Svartalfar; apparently there's a whole bunch of creatures/people/demons/whatever they were who each think they're the real Esus and have deceived all the others into believing they're Esus. Whether I remember this correctly or not, it seems odd for Esus to actually personally appear, directly showing he's Esus. That's the truth, after all. I'm not quite sure how you could do that bit of story without the real Esus appearing there, though.

I haven't played the scenarios so didn't know about this. Looking through the text file, I found the TXT_KEY_WB_THE_SPLINTERED_COURT_VICTORY_SVARTALFAR, (Don't open if you're planning on playing the scenario)
Spoiler :

"The messenger of Esus was one of my favorite creations. He had two mouths and always spoke both the truth and lies. He was currently standing before the court simultaneously telling of the victory of the Svartalfar and of the Ljosalfar. Demonic barons planned both my triumph and a way to recover from this defeat depending on which story they believed. Of course as I am able to discern every lie; it is of no hindrance to me.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]The messenger addressed the masked figure in the throne, who sat in the deepest shadows of the long hall. Everyone assumed that was Esus, in fact my deception was so complete that even the decoy in the throne believed he was Esus when actually I was disguised as a simple lyrist in the hall. These past few centuries I had begun to wonder: what if everyone in the hall believed that they were Esus and I wasn't in fact the god of deception? But it was a thought I tried to chase out of my mind.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]I could see everything done in shadows, hear everything whispered. In a distant cell Ljosalfar prisoners planned for an escape, Rivanna herself considered overthrowing Faeryl, and all throughout the Umbrawood those few elves who remained loyal to Cernunnos hid.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]Across the rest of Erebus greater lies are being told by priests, generals and kings. I closed my eyes and buried myself in the layers of manipulation, intrigue and egoism.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]But there was one cancerous sore on Erebus, one place devoid of the subtleties of my work. The Dead Lands, where walking corpses spoke their own simple truth and Tebryn Arbandi sought to end my game entirely. There is no opportunity in destruction, and as much as my wayward sister may object, I had no desire to see my kingdoms turned to ash.[NEWLINE][NEWLINE]So I whispered into Faeryl's ear. I told her tales of desire, wealth and power and beneath a white moon the Svartalfar launched warships towards the Dead Lands."


"Esus" considers what if everyone in the hall thought that they were the real Esus but chases the thought from his mind. So, it does imply that there are some who are mistaken in the belief that they are Esus. Even if there are numerous beings that think that they are Esus, there still is one real Esus (unless a God can split himself into multiple Gods). The fake Esus theory could be useful if I need to counteract any of my own plots - multiple fake Esus acting at cross-purposes.

The way I had thought about it was that within Shadowfel, Esus essence is present everywhere, so even Gods and angels would have difficulty in discerning the real Esus. I would have built this into any story where one of the other Gods visits Esus in Shadowfel. Within and outside Shadowfel there could be lots of beings thinking they're Esus - Within Shadowfel, no-one would know which is the true Esus. Outside Shadowfel, some Gods and angels would have a chance to identify the real Esus. Within Lugus's vault, those deceptions would all be stripped away, which is why Esus would never go there and would not send anyone there who thought that they were Esus.

I had planned to have Esus never appear as himself when interacting with the other Gods or angels. I changed this approach for Sabathiel, to allow for the Godslayer part of the conversation.

Thanks for bringing the scenario ending to my attention. I don't think it causes a problem for the stories as drafted. If anything it just gives more twisted opportunities for this head-wrecking God in the future.
 
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