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Hermetic Lore for FfH DI6

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Stories & Tales' started by Derf, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    @zbelg
    I've a possible Death/Enchantment cross-over quest. Laroth is known to be good at crafting enchanted weapons (nether blade). Apart from Rathus Denmora, I'll distribute similar nether blades to heroes of other civs on behalf of Laroth. Nantosuelta could see these weapons as a corruption of her sphere, particularly after Gyra talks to her. While not wanting to appear to intervene directly in Erebus, she could advise Cassiel of the danger posed by these weapons and describe a means to destroy/disenchant them. It's up to Ravus how he gets the weapons if he chooses to - some civs might sell them, other nether blades might only be taken from someone's dead hands, others could be transferred as part of peace negotiations.

    If Ravus destroys them all, Nantosuelta could give a reward. Gyra might give some benefit also. Laroth's plans will be delayed.
    If Ravus actively uses nether blades, Laroth's plans will accelerate.

    Samain would like to study one of the weapons but he would like them destroyed immediately after that.
     
  2. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    First, some lore questions:
    Does Gyra make sure that all souls that die go to the appropriate God (by actively directing them or overseeing their natural drift) or does she just sweep up the souls of those dedicated to Arawn or who weren't claimed by another God into Arawn's vault? If it's the former, then Laroth's takeover attempt will have a very significant impact on all of the Gods, not just Arawn.
    If Cassiel chose to Fall rather than signing the Compact, is he bound by it, including the bit about not revealing the One?
    Would new Gods, Brigit/Laroth be bound by the Compact? I assume they could take more liberties as they didn't sign up but if they're excessive on Erebus, then the other Gods would agree to send someone in to deal with them (like Sucellus dealt with Mulcarn).

    Until necromancy is discovered, I plan to limit the number of undead in the world to reflect Gyra doing a good job. I'll probably remove some cemetaries/barrows on my next intervention (if anyone is taking the save again before Ravus, feel free to delete cemetaries/barrows. This also ties in to the Seraphs only raising members of their own family.
    On the discovery of necromancy, I do a little story about Laroth capturing Gyra. One of his angels takes over the job. I then place a load of cemeteries/barrows in the world along with some undead as he's not as dedicated/efficient. The answer to the first question effects what happens next;
    • Do some Gods negotiate with Laroth to keep receiving their portion of souls?
    • Do some Gods negotiate with Laroth to get more than their portion of souls?
    • Do some Gods declare war and invade Arawn's Vault (Rem Arawn is still alive)? Laroth could open the floodgates into Erebus, so that there's more undead than living there, so Gods might want to think twice before going to defcon 1.
    • Do some Gods tell Arawn to sort his house out?
    • Note: At this stage, it is not in Laroth's interest to disrupt the flow of souls to the other Gods, so some may not even notice the replacement of Gyra.
    After taking control of the arch angel's position, Laroth will continue his schemes to become the God of Death. At this stage, all souls that would go to Arawn are going to him so his power will continue to grow, even without the Sidar.
     
  3. axecack

    axecack Chieftain

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  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    for the compact i agree.
    technically the archangels and the new gods are not bound by the compact... but they will get hit hard by those that are bound by it if they balantly cross it. but they have a lot more wiggle room. Maybe they are more free to do anything that is not "setting a physical feet into Erebus".

    For the hells.
    well, any soul dedicated to a god go to that gods' hell/sphere/domain(and fuel it's power).
    The gods even go as far to say that having followed their principle is enough to go to them.
    Mammon goes even farther as he argues that many "common acts" are in fact "secretly following the precepts of mammon / greed".

    IMO the role of Gyra (then Laroth), is limited to be the arbiter when 2 gods/(or their angels-lawyers/representative) argue for the same soul.
    Further he checks that each claim of a god to a soul is "true" so that unaligned souls are not taken by a god that shouldn't have a right to make the claim.

    All unaligned soul that could not be linked even vaguly to greed goes into ... Arawn's domain.
    However I feel that in Arawn's domain the souls are not technically used for power.

    Therefore I'm not sure that Laroth could use the power of the deads to fuel himself.
    Maybe he could create his own pocket dimension and take for himself the souls either "dedicated to the death sphere" OR the souls for which the competition is too hard (eg. Junil AND Mammon making claims to a soul with arguments that are roughly of same strength ==> confiscated).

    Indeed, Gyra/Laroth does not rule/use the souls of Arawn's domain.. Arwan is the only one with the ability to do this. Gyra/Laroth would only help directing the influx of souls.

    However if Laroth started to take for himself all unaligned souls, or some going toward the other gods ... I think even Arawn would notice and Laroth would be reduced to smitherns way before he get the strength to challenge Arawn. (like an bank accountant that divert clients and bank's money for himself... he is unoticed only if he starts very small).
    (and He must not even think of taking the souls Mammon got his eyes on... unless it is justified... Mammon might smash him real easy as he is god with the most souls (save for Arawn's domain).

    Best bet to replace Arawn is to force him to be summoned on Erebus then use the godslayer on him :D...
     
  5. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    These are the bits I originally read when learning about Laroth; http://fallfromheaven.wikia.com/wiki/Laroth, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325035 &http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=315946.

    MagisterCultuum says
    It sounds like Gyra has already carved out his own kingdom, claiming other souls, within Arawn's vault without him taking any action.
    Once Laroth neutralises Gyra, then unless Arawn completely changes his non-interventionist policy, Laroth will have a free hand within the Vault.
    Only the heroic souls are really useful in Laroth's army. This is why multiple Nether Blades are very useful to his plans.
    He can use the other souls. My plan for some souls was to have lots of them endure the worst torments Laroth can throw at them and then bind them in an object which is given to Gyra. The compassionate Gyra is overcome by all of the suffering, allowing her to be disabled and conquered by Laroth's agents.
    One of Laroth's angels will take Gyra's seal of authority and can then act as the arbiter between the Gods when they both want the same soul. It's not quite as prone to abuse as I'd hoped but it's still a position of power, allowing Laroth to negotiate with other Gods to ensure some level of protection or even just promises of non-intervention within Arawn's vault.
     
  6. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    I don't have the same read of Magister's description as you have.

    But it doesn't really matter as you will be playing those guys and I won't be playing at all.
    (I would have liked Dagda however 1) he is taken ; 2) I'm gonna go on (at least) a 3-4 weeks hiatus so could never keep it up)

    my read of this is :
    laroth does not use the power of the souls in arawn domain to get stronger (more personal power)...
    it is the reverse :
    he use his own personnal power to help other soul "awaken"... and thus increasing is army. (not his personnal "magical/godlike power")... those are few in numbers. so it goes with the "few stolen by the accountant".

    The only souls that he directly get are through the netherblade.
    But that is different : those are not "souls stolen from death".

    Arawn doesn't interven yet because, IMO, laroth is not threatening the souls, nor the domain, nor Arawn himself (I'm not sure he believes in the threat) ; IMO Laroth is "protected" by the fact that apparences are that he works "for the souls themselves ; to awaken them".
    However, I'm pretty sure that if Laroth tried to steal souls and use them go get godlike power... Arawn might change opinion.


    I mean : it's not the same to be a pickpocket taking money in people pockets (or burgling into houses, especially from big rich corrupt vilains), and be a fraud accountant that divert the bank's money into his pocket.
    in both cases you steal money, but you don't get the same people on your back. And if the accountant is a burgler but a good accountant, his employer will never kill him, the police will do some things, but not the employer. If the accountant steals from the patrons/clients or the company... the employer might do something.

    and if your employer is Arawn, he is potentialy one of the strongest gods ; like the big boss of a super multinational company, making more money than any state in the world ; so fearing the super big company and not the small local sherif might sometimes be showing some good sense.

    IMO, Laroth may try to overthrown Gyra or even trick Arawn so he could replace him... BUt until he replaces Arawn, Laroth may not be able to orient the flow of the dead in a way too much different from what is done by Gyra. (save maybe in some case of very strong-willed heroes or the like... but that would be one here, one there;.. unnoticeable in the mass of souls)
     
  7. zbelg

    zbelg Chieftain

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    I love your ideas Lplate, especially the Nether Blade bit. As far as the Council member is concerned, I think I will roll with Belle as a monarchist. I suppose that means I should decide on what actually happened to Kylorin, but I think I will keep him out of play and more as a figure of legend for the wayward dissenters. I'd like Nantosuelta to be on Ravus's side, at least as long as he stays on the righteous path.

    I like that Belle was first introduced as falling for Salvador's charms. I'm going with the idea that the holder of the seat of perfection is easily swayed by emotion, and in fact, quite imperfect, as mortals tend to be. A part of the monarchist angle could even be a fixation on Kylorin himself.
     
  8. axecack

    axecack Chieftain

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  9. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I certainly wouldn't give nether blades to every CIV. A total of three in the world is probably enough.
    If Ravus doesn't do anything about them, we can always say that a different CIV (Luchuirp) has acted on a warning given by Nantosuelta and succeeded in getting and destroying one or more of the swords (after Ravus has been given a chance to act).
    The save should be posted on the story thread for Ravus to pick up tomorrow.
    Dagda's angels worked with Cassiel for millennia. It's not the end of the world if one of them visits Cassiel. A visit could be made with the primary purpose of seeing that Cassiel is alright. Dagda would care about him after all.
    Those who follow Cassiel could most likely have their souls claimed by Dagda. Dagda could give any of them a message to deliver.
    You could take an approach like the way I used Rabish for Esus in DI5 - describe various options that are open to Cassiel in the story text, with a recommendation toward a course of action and in the OOC, highlight the one that will receive a reward from Dagda. One way could be a group seeking to discuss and learn wisdom from Cassiel. They could be asking/discussing what the best/most balanced course of action is.

    Edit: We've done ground work for characters, but has Ravus been given quests for the first 50 turns?
     
  10. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    I think we've done enough for the first intervention. Whoever has the save, can they post it in the main thread for Ravus to take?
     
  11. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    On the topic of an "Awaken Dallanin" mega plot, my ideas are:
    - OO is made (by us) the most powerful religion BUT
    - OO is not what Dallanin wants and he will destroy it (all OO units, the Necromonicron, all temples, remove OO religion from all cities) if awakened
    - Barbarians are given pirate ships with the extra cargo space promotion to carry a unit with the city attack or no penalty for attacking from sea promotion
    - Water walking barbarian (drown?) units keep spawning to pillage coastal improvements (ie crabs, fish, clam fishing boats) of players
    - Adopting OO gives peace with barbarians
    - Use raging barbarians setting
     
  12. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    Illians mega-plot idea:
    - the higher their score, the colder the world (less forests and jungles, and a cooling version of the genesis ritual)
     
  13. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    I just tried playing it and that's a bad start with all the jungle...
     
  14. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Non-Intervention
    Spoiler :

    Someone, observing Him, might think He was asleep. He wasn't asleep. He never slept. Sleep and rest were necessities of the living mortals. He required no sleep.
    He thought, He dreamed. Just like all the mortal souls in the Vault, His ideas shaped the nature of the Vault around Him.
    A mortal soul at the end of a life well lived, could look back, with a sense of satisfaction, knowing that all, that needed to be done, had been done. Arawn saw His Vault and indeed, His Godhood, in the same light, knowing that all, that needed to be done, had been done.
    Erebus drifted into His consciousness and it appeared before Him. Either it was the real Erebus, apparently at a smaller scale or an exact copy of the current conditions on Erebus. For all their denials, the ongoing actions of the other Gods were plainly visible in this world. The problem with Erebus, He mused, was that it was designed by committee, so no-one was satisfied with the result. Even now, the others tried to tweak it here and there to make it more to their liking. The foolish mortals went along with the schemes of His siblings. If only some of them would see that they'd be better off living their own lives, rather than being the tools for someone else's plans. Erebus would be a better place if the Gods let it be and the mortals stopped trying to curry favour with the Gods.
    His Vault, in contrast to Erebus, worked perfectly, exactly as designed. It's capacity automatically adapted to accommodate the dying so it was never too big or too small. Each soul created it's own heaven or hell based on what they believed they deserved. The whole system was set up to work, without the need, for Him, to make continuous adjustments. This left Him with all the time in the worlds to think and dream.

    OOC, Quest
    Spoiler :

    If you deliberately do not start or complete any divine quests from other Gods in the next 50 turns, you'll get a reward. There'll be a similar reward for the following 50 turns. There'll be a bonus if you meet the requirement for 100 turns.
    Trying but failing to complete divine quests gets you nothing.



    Is this a suitable Arawn intervention?
    The reward will be in the form of bequests which can go to the state or to religious orders.
    It's a bit dependent on other Gods giving quests, so I can hold off giving this to Ravus until the God turn after next, if there aren't enough other divine quests next time.

    ---
    Given the power of dreams and beliefs in Arawn's Vault, does the following make sense as a way for Laroth to defeat Arawn without using the Godslayer?
    • Laroth convinces Arawn that he is vulnerable (persuasion being one of Laroth's strong points).
    • As Arawn believes he's vulnerable, this shapes the Vault around Him, creating an area where it is possible for a God to be destroyed.
    • Laroth strikes, destroying Arawn and freeing up the Precept of Death.
    Alternatively, Laroth (possibly, with assistance from Esus) convinces Arawn to believe that He's not a God. This belief is enough to strip Him of His God powers within the Vault. Laroth, then seizes power.
     
  15. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    my 0.2:
    you should give more precisions on the reward :
    (3 now (pursueing 3quests from other gods)... is better than 1 tomorrow (pursueing your quest for 1 unknown reward) )

    on laroth/arawn (but here it is only my opinion).
    I dislike the idea of Laroth killing Arawn. (maybe because I'm more chaotic-good or neutral :D... I think I like Arawn)
    Second, I'm not sure the power of dreams applies to Arawn itself... IMO it is more an effect of his power on the souls.
    I liked it better when I thought that Laroth was, for you, the arch-ennemy of your Avatar (Arawn) and that you played laroth to give you plotlines to summon Arawn or at leat waken Arawn (to justify making him more involved in game)

    However, it seems to me now that you are designing Laroth to be your main "avatar", and His quest to kill/replace Arawn as your main "quest" for the game.

    well, It is you playing so I'll not say more on this.
     
  16. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    The reward will be intentionally vague when I give the quest to Ravus. To be honest, I don't expect him to go for it but it seemed to suit as a non-interventionist's intervention. The rewards will also be relatively miserly, so openly announcing their value would probably discourage Ravus from the quest.
    This quest is not a blanket ban against other quests. Non divine quests, i.e. Quests where the requester is mortal and any reward is provided by a mortal would not effect this quest. If a God is exceptionally subtle in his quest and reward then this might also not effect this quest.

    Laroth is a schemer and so is an easier character to use than the say nothing/do nothing/offer nothing Arawn character. Laroth has been plotting to be the God of Death for millennia so he needs to have come up with some plan to deal with Arawn. He could of course have miscalculated and end up being defeated by Arawn. Does it make sense that Laroth might use either of the options above to try and defeat Arawn or does he need to focus on finding the Godslayer?
    As a fourth option, given Laroth's skill in creating the nether blade, could he create a weapon to trap a God's soul/essence? If he could, then he could have a weaker Arawn figurehead as God but Laroth would be the one pulling the strings.

    The difficulty with Arawn is that he's predefined as non-interventionist. To have him start intervening actively in the game, I need to explain why he doesn't intervene currently (Organised his vault so it runs without him needing to take an active interest and thinks Erebus would be better off with less God meddling), so that his reasons can later be called into question and justification provided for him to get more involved. Laroth "succeeding" might be what it takes to get him active as if Laroth fails too easily then Arawn remains sure of his position.

    I hope to use several of the characters for quests. None is my sole avatar. Samain will be giving a quest in the next round. Laroth's attempts to take over will be a big part of the Death story. Ideally, I need to work out some quests so that Ravus has an impact on whether Laroth succeeds or fails - so far all I've got is the multiple nether blades idea and the Amurite (Legion of D'Tesh lookalike) Civilization.
     
  17. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    Quick question - am I meant to have installed Tholal's More Naval AI mod??
     
  18. Bad Player

    Bad Player Chieftain

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    DI6 Quest Ideas for Mammon (feedback greatly appreciated pls!):

    - help barbs capture a rival's city that has a resource player will want then help player capture it from barbs and not return it. But this adds to the AC. Different civs have a different likelihood of paying to support it (Eholim - low % chance, Hippus - high % chance).

    - something similar to the UN city voting mechanic whereby you can bribe other civs to vote for you to get a non-capital city from an opponent (or else they become at war with all other UN-type council members).

    - The nations' greed destroys the world's health resources and forests slowly through global warming, blazes (or other mechanic?)

    - offer a toad that kills a parasite in a sugar crop to improve yields (but eventually causes unhealthiness)

    - sell unique items that everyone would want and let nations bid for it
    > item that gives +1 happiness to whichever city it is in
    > item which poisons the water supply (both directions) of a river and all branches, giving +2 unhealthiness to all other cities connected by that river
    > item that allows a unit carrying it (Ravus Sol will have to nominate one unit if he buys it, otherwise I will nominate it for a unit of another civ who buys it. Ranger or something has this ability but I don't think it's a promotion)
     
  19. Derf

    Derf Modular Mushroom

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    No - it's included with MagisterModMod
     
  20. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I like the basic idea. I don't understand exactly what you mean by the last two lines. How will AC be affected and what are the civs paying for?

    Essentially what you're talking about is establishing a global council including good, neutral and evil civs. The existing council civics within the game are then either separate councils to this (like UN and EU) or else voting groups within the global council. I think it works best if the existing councils remain separate but may vote as a block. The members of the Undercouncil are obviously more likely to respond to bribery.
    You'd need to open diplomatic relations between all civs (unless some are left out in the cold) when you establish the global council and may want to give a diplomatic boost to the civ where you base the council with all other member civs.
    The corruption of the global council could be a gradual effect through the story. i.e. Everyone joins with altruistic intentions and great hopes for a better Erebus and then the representatives and governments get corrupted by greed and self interest.
    The good nations may see that they need to use the corrupt practices of the others if they are to achieve anything (good) in the global council.
    If the AC goes too high, then the global council might need to be disbanded or at least be shown to lose almost all of its influence as the differences between good and evil will be too pronounced.

    (This reminds me of my Panivo. They were all about destroying the world through over consumption.)
    I think that this could work for Mammon as well. You might want to give bonus resources and associated improvement (beside an existing worked resource) to some civs to show how they are taking more of that resource from the land than typically is the case. A couple of God turns later, you remove the extra resource and then a few God turns later still, you remove the original resource. This shows how they have rushed to get as much as they can out of the land but have done it in an unsustainable way. (Possible story line could be a merchant selling "magical" superior seeds, which produce more but as everyone uses them, there is a decrease in biodiversity and ultimately the single crop that everyone in the city has grown to rely on succumbs to disease/pestilence.)
    You could look at giving extra gold to cities which contain markets or other Mammon associated buildings for a few God Turns but then later start to degrade the value of the surrounding terrain to reflect the over exploitation.

    This might be the story for that bonus worked resource I described above.

    If doing something like an auction, you need to have an idea of how the various other nations would value the item and what they'd be prepared to bid. You might want to consider whether an item be offered to all or only a selection of civs.
    Could desire for one of the auctioned items provoke an outbid nation to declare war?

    I particularly like the water supply effect but I'd amend it to a city which gets a benefit (i.e. building) but all downstream cities on the river get a penalty. I wouldn't have the problems spread upriver. This reflects how people act greedily to take what benefit they can without regard for the impact on others so fits well with Mammon.
     

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