[NFP] Heroes mode and AI

[Nerevatar]

Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere, but I went through 8 pages of thread titles and looked through the posts of each thread relating to heroes or the babylon pack but didnt find an answer. Google searchs also was of no use.

How well do the AI handle the Heroes and Legend mode? Specifically:

1. Are they somewhat competitive in recruiting heroes?
2. Do they use the abilities of the heroes? Like:
   1. Is Sinbad sent to explore and kill naval stuff?
   2. Is Sun Wukong going around pillaging things?
   3. Is Himiko being sent to city states?
   4. Is Maui creating ressources within their own territory?
   5. Is Anansi nuking ressources near enemies or inside their border (and not inside the AI's own border)?
3. Are they somewhat effective in their use of heroes?

I hope someone can enlighten me.

 

[borad]

The AI getting heroes does not appear to be a problem. Using them well: hmmm…

I was really annoyed in my current game when I discovered Hercules early, and a turn later he strolls out for the Zulu — with all 6 charges remaining.

Zulu then declared war on me: I had a hilly start location and picked his invading army apart with archers (bizarrely, despite being first to get to my capital, Hercules actually departed before the declaration of war). The Maori and one of my city states then burnt two of their three cities to the ground before I could even go on the offence. He deserved that.

 

[Linklite]

1. Eh, depends on how you mean competitive. They'll recruit heroes, and I often see notifications that they've done so. I've never felt any need to race them for it though, I've never lost a hero that I wanted bar once where I forgot to recruit them, getting distracted.
2. Not that I've seen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, it just hasn't happened to me.
3. I've.never seen them do anything other than explore with them, really. One exception was Mulan, but she took a particle siege canon blast to the face before she could fo much, so I never found out Teddy's intent for her

 

[Nerevatar]

Thanks for the replies. I expected the ai to buy them and move them around, but I was worried that the corner stone mechanic of the game mode was unused by the AI, such as using active abilties or just generally treat them differently from a simple foot soldier.

I hope someone has observed the AI actually use heroes even slightly correctly, and that they are not just another voidsinger cultist fiasco...

 

[anonxanemone]

The AI getting heroes does not appear to be a problem. Using them well: hmmm…

I was really annoyed in my current game when I discovered Hercules early, and a turn later he strolls out for the Zulu — with all 6 charges remaining.

Zulu then declared war on me: I had a hilly start location and picked his invading army apart with archers (bizarrely, despite being first to get to my capital, Hercules actually departed before the declaration of war). The Maori and one of my city states then burnt two of their three cities to the ground before I could even go on the offence. He deserved that.

How could you tell an enemy Hercules had all of his charges? Isn't that information hidden if you are an opponent?

 

[Linklite]

How could you tell an enemy Hercules had all of his charges? Isn't that information hidden if you are an opponent?

Seems odd to me. The Zulu would have had to already completed the devotion for him when he was discovered, which is impossible. I don't know about heroes specifically, but most units don't display their charges to anyone apart from their owner.

I think the story has been somewhat embellished.

 

[Margaret I of Denmark]

Long time lurker but decided to make a user to post this.

I did test this out a bit by using firetuner and other cheats. I did not see a single instance of hercules, maui or anansi abilties being used. Heroes seems to be used like normal units.

Was i just unlucky? Anyone else actually looked into this? Seems incredibly dumb to make a mode centered around special units without making the ai use them in any meaningful way...

 

[Socrates99]

I don't know about abilities. Mostly I just see them being used as military units. That can be a problem if you don't have your own hero or at min a general to buff your units. So I'd say it's a positive in that they get a unit or two that's difficult to handle even in incompetent hands. I've had a few times where a hero pops out of the fog and gives me trouble.

What's sad is that they don't time DoWs to coincide with the heroes lifespan. Korea DoWed me and I spotted Beowulf. I thought it'd be tough keeping out of his reach while trying to defend myself. His combat str alone on deity would be a pain unless I could whittle him down a lot with ranged. He disappeared a couple turns after the DoW. Never saw him again. She waited til the tail end of his lifespan to declare a war?

 

[kaspergm]

From what I've seen reported, the AI will always recruit the first hero they discover if unclaimed. I have not seen any indications or documentation that the AI will hold out for or try to discover specific heroes - i.e. they seem clueless about the fact that Sindbad is basically a winning ticket for any game. They will rarely recruit a second hero until much later in game. I've never seen nor seen any documented cases of AI heroes using their special ability (really ...). AI seem to use heroes as any other unit, which means generally ineffectively but obviously they can be a nuisance since heroes generally are strong.

 

[Nerevatar]

From looking at the code, it seems the AI is limited on purpose in regards to recruiting. There is a parameter to control at what turn at the earliest a hero can be recruited and another parameter which seems to indicate how many turns the AI will have to wait between recruiting heroes. So even if they discover ALL HEROES on turn 1, it will be 50+ turns before they are even allowed to recruit their second.

But oh boy is that sad if true about not using abilties. For a mode focused on those units it just seems so half arsed to not even give the AI the slightest idea on how use them. Guess I wont be buying that pack even if it, on paper, sounds fun

Anyone who have evidence to the contrary?

 

[Pfeffersack]

It is worrisome that no one here posted a single observation of AIs using hero abilities - and that there also doesn't seem to be any of the usual reports how bad, ineffective and wasteful the AIs is with it (which would be at least a sign for them getting used at all). I haven't touched that mode yet and I always planned to do it at some point...but with heroes abilities a human-only feature I see little use doing so, as this sounds even worse then the AI troubles with other modes. In the first glance it might be comparable to Secret Socities, Voidsingers and Cultists - but with the tiny difference that in the latter case rougly only 1/4 of the AIs opponents are affected (and even those can still profit from OGOs and Relics)

 

[Finvola]

Scotland sent Beowulf my way once but he didn't actually wipe my units out with him. He used him to attack like a regular unit so it was easy enough to kill him.

One I suppose they can't fail with are the Twins. Rome attacked me with them but I picked them off with my archers. So I guess even if they do use them, they don't use them efficiently or properly. I saw Scythia recruit Sinbad but I didn't complete that game so I can't say for sure whether or not they would have used him to his potential.

 

[PiR]

I don't know about abilities. Mostly I just see them being used as military units. That can be a problem if you don't have your own hero or at min a general to buff your units. So I'd say it's a positive in that they get a unit or two that's difficult to handle even in incompetent hands. I've had a few times where a hero pops out of the fog and gives me trouble.

Same here

 

[Planktonic]

It is worrisome that no one here posted a single observation of AIs using hero abilities - and that there also doesn't seem to be any of the usual reports how bad, ineffective and wasteful the AIs is with it (which would be at least a sign for them getting used at all). I haven't touched that mode yet and I always planned to do it at some point...but with heroes abilities a human-only feature I see little use doing so, as this sounds even worse then the AI troubles with other modes. In the first glance it might be comparable to Secret Socities, Voidsingers and Cultists - but with the tiny difference that in the latter case rougly only 1/4 of the AIs opponents are affected (and even those can still profit from OGOs and Relics)

It is clear that the AI will not use the hero's unique ability even when it is imperative that they do so.

Playing as Babylon (deity, standard everything) I was rushing a neighboring civ in the late Classical. The only city remaining was the capital city, which from afar had a defensive strength that was extremely high, so high that I didn't even know how it could be possible. Drawing near, it became evident that Beowulf was garrisoning the (still unwalled) city.

So how to capture it? Archers were having little effect; I had Hercules so I resolved to try to surround it, siege it and use Hercules to inflict damage initially so that conventional swordsmen could whittle away at it afterwards. Bottom line- the city fell without trouble, even though Beowulf could at any time have destroyed the sieging units without ever leaving the garrison (nor did he attempt any conventional attack or sortie).

I have stopped playing the Heroes mode as a result- it feels way too imbalanced in favor of the single player.

 

[Nerevatar]

It is clear that the AI will not use the hero's unique ability even when it is imperative that they do so.

Playing as Babylon (deity, standard everything) I was rushing a neighboring civ in the late Classical. The only city remaining was the capital city, which from afar had a defensive strength that was extremely high, so high that I didn't even know how it could be possible. Drawing near, it became evident that Beowulf was garrisoning the (still unwalled) city.

So how to capture it? Archers were having little effect; I had Hercules so I resolved to try to surround it, siege it and use Hercules to inflict damage initially so that conventional swordsmen could whittle away at it afterwards. Bottom line- the city fell without trouble, even though Beowulf could at any time have destroyed the sieging units without ever leaving the garrison (nor did he attempt any conventional attack or sortie).

I have stopped playing the Heroes mode as a result- it feels way too imbalanced in favor of the single player.

Wow that is discouraging. That is litterally the most simple action which one would imagine require the least effort to implemenent. Point at unit and fire.

I'm left to wonder how such things get through to release. Overworked devs? Too tight budget or schedule? I dont believe the devs dont care or QA is sloppy. Then you dont work in game development for a triple A company.

 

[enKage]

The AI does not know how to use heroes, I am often able to recruit 4 heroes and it makes deity too easy
AI cannot retake cities in dramatic age
AI does not build manufactories and never had monopoly
AI cannot handle secret societies, cultist spam being the best example followed by vampires sitting in a city

The only playable mode AI can play is apocalypse. It is sad, but all other modes is giving powerful tool to the player, and making AI weaker.

This is why I still play standard mode with all modes off, with a possible esception of apocalypse

 

[PiR]

The only playable mode AI can play is apocalypse. It is sad, but all other modes is giving powerful tool to the player, and making AI weaker.

You consider AI to make good use of Soothsayers? I don't. :-(

 

[enKage]

At least AI can sacrifise units to win competition, while AI have huge problems to recruit a hero

Anyway
additional modes are basically unplayable

 

[LMT]

This is just a casual, purely anecdotal observation, but it seems that the AI is not recruiting Heroes as often since the last NFP update in January.

Before then, I always felt I had to compete immediately to recruit heroes. Since the last update, it seems I can take my time, and when I get around to it, recruit almost any hero I want.

This is on Emperor.

 

[Nerevatar]

This is just a casual, purely anecdotal observation, but it seems that the AI is not recruiting Heroes as often since the last NFP update in January.

Before then, I always felt I had to compete immediately to recruit heroes. Since the last update, it seems I can take my time, and when I get around to it, recruit almost any hero I want.

This is on Emperor.

There is actually specific settings in the Global Parameters that limit how often the AI recruit heroes, so that part is actually easily moddable, and not a deficiency of the AI.