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Hi, rank BTS Civs in true world importance (opinion)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by CarpeDiem, Jan 7, 2008.

  1. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Sure but thats a what if. I read a highly enjoyable SF novel by Robert Silverberg called 'Gate of Many Worlds'. Due to the effects of the Black Death the Ottomans conquered Western Europe, no Age of Exploration took place and eventually the Incas and Aztecs became great powers. Maybe it could've happened but it didn't.

    I wouldn't call the eastern end of Eurasia 1 huge landmass all to themselves. China shared the region with lots of other cultures but became the dominant one, something no single western culture (even the Romans) ever managed to the same extent.
     
  2. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Today's Spain didn't conquered anything in the Americas ,because Spain in it's current form only exists from 1668 ( recognized indenpendance of Portugal after the Philipine dynasty ). The thing that conquered most of the Americas was the united kingdoms of Castille and Aragon, a thing that is quite diferent ( almost as saying that Carolingian Empire = France... er.. *shut up* :lol: or that France= Poland , because of the father in law of Louis XIV had become King of Poland and the crown of Poland had fell on the Bourbon family ( I'm pretty sure you know that story better than me :p ).... ).
    And Spain from 1668 until now is not exactly a strong and influential civ....

    P.S Wearing flaming suit....
     
  3. lh0628

    lh0628 Chieftain

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    Not quite true. China had constantly fought with what it considered barbarian tribes from the north and the west through history. Xiongnu and the Mongols being the most famous.

    I agree with you though that China would've achieved a lot more if it was located near other comparably powered states. That and if they didn't always fight amongst themselves all the time.
     
  4. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Shared the region with lots of other cultures? Which ones?

    That's like saying scotland's achievements during the 18th-20th centurys wasn't Great Britain's achievements. (sorry if that doesn't make sense).

    still i meant spanish colonies as a whole...

    Constantly? More like a couple. (although one could argue the mongolian invasions lasted over some time).

    Sarcasm used a weapon... :p :joke:

    I completely agree with you on that one.

    ---

    It's been awhile since i was in a quote war...
     
  5. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Nice joke with Poland, but my point about England still stands. They (and the dutch) were the ones who created the ideas of Globalisation, the United States followed in this trend and made it great. I think the difference between our points of view is that I see the begin of this modern age (with was entirely Britain) and not very recent past as important. Britain made trading partners of everyone, in the Paris Peace Conference they wanted to leave Germany in tack as a trading partner. Everything with Britain was about trade. The second set of Globalisation with corporations that you are reffering to has been an American achivement, but it still pales in comparison to what Britain did. I don't think you realise what a step forward Britain made in comparison to any other civilisation. The United States continued the traditions of the British, they created trade partners and in the golden age that was the twenties this began to really become America's ballcourt. But what they did did not change the world so entirely as that of Britain.

    So to recap... (revised)(effect on humanity)

    1. England
    2. Sumeria
    3. Greece
    4. Arabia
    5. China
    6. Rome
    7. The United States
    ...
    1,297. Poland
     
  6. empee

    empee Chieftain

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    actually there was a time when Poland was a very important country, i would say even a local emipre and thanks to Polish winged knights Austrians don't speak turkish today. Later on its power declined but it was due to a very ineffective form of goverment something like a noble republic under an elected king. So i would put it higher on the list. definietly highier than australia which is what it is today only thanks to the brits.
     
  7. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Two things...

    1. There is a nationalistic pole here, I was making a joke to go with their ranking of Poland as number 1.
    2. Australia shouldn't even be ranked at all. We are a very minor part of the world. So yeah...
     
  8. CHEESE!

    CHEESE! On a long nostalgia trip

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    That was to the point.... and anyway yeah i agree to that, i thought you meant they werent influential....

    Though whenever i see the people begging for Aborigines, i wonder....
     
  9. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Mongolians, Manchus, Tibetans, Koreans, Japanese, all of SE Asia, various others I can't remember and/or can't spell the name of (eg Hsing Nu).
     
  10. empee

    empee Chieftain

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    as we're bringing the flames down i have to say that on my list unfortunatly Poland isn't too high either. despite all we achived in the past right now we're not counting on the political scene and our only influence is tons of polish workers going abroad..
    Getting back to the topic, my list
    1. Englad (i think it was explained enogh before)
    2. China
    3. Arabs
    4. Greece
    5. Egypt
    6. Mongolia
    7. US
    8. Russia
    9. Spain
    10. India
     
  11. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    Nicely done...

    As for the Welsh Amazon Queen...

    The Han Chinese (to you they would be know as chinese) were actually under the rule of the Manchus in the last Dynasty of China. Much of what should be considered Mongolia was also taken by china but all of this was a fairly recent addition. China was no more united than the Holy Roman Empire for most of History, but unlike Europe they didn't fracture back out into dozens of pieces as China [unlike Europe] had no reason to. In actually fact the Opium wars united China in a way that the west lacked in the more modern ages. As the focus changed from religious (war against Islam) to scientific Europe truly just fractured back into it cultural pieces, unlike China who had not come past religion yet. Once the West began to try and create they own Empires there they had also given them a common enemy to unite against [like Europe during the crusades].

    Past England being top, I think it is just down to opinion...
     
  12. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    Wrong. There were both in the Americas in precolumbian times.

    The whole of Mesoamerica, Peru, and parts of the Mississipi basin were urbanized and agrarian and meet all the requirements for any definition of civilization which can encompass Egypt, Greece, Sumeria, and the Indus Valley civilization.

    As for empires, the Americas were awash in them. The Inca, Aztec, and Iroqouis all had empires which easily fit the normal definition. By stretching the definition a bit, you can include many many other groups - the Cree, the Wyandot, etc.
     
  13. Howard!

    Howard! Remembering

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    The Native America Empire is not an Empire. I agree that the Meso-Americans had great Empires, but we are talking about Native Americans in the United States frame of view...

    By the way, when were the Celts ever in the Americas?
     
  14. frekk

    frekk Scourge of St. Lawrence

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    The Iroqouis were in the US and had an empire - quite a massive one, actually (most of the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence river basin, at one point). They didn't have cities, but there were large native cities in the US, Cahokia and Poverty Point for instance.

    I'm certain the Celts were never in the Americas. But it's a good point of comparison - the only thing that really distinguishes the Celts and the least organized native american groups is ironworking. Most native american groups were far more politically centralized than the Celts, whether in confederacies like the Iroqoius or Wyandot or outright republics with bureaucracies like the Aztec.

    Btw ... Mexico is part of North America.
     
  15. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    Of course it was turn 356 and they still hadn't discovered the wheel. :) Or Iron working for that matter.

    Did I miss the great pyramids of Michigan while I was growing up? Seriously though, the Iroquois nation covered a bit of land, but you'd be hardpressed to call it an empire. They built almost nothing permanent. Still lived a modified hunter/gatherer lifestyle, with some agrarian aspects thrown in for good measure. (They grew, hunted, gathered, and moved on when the land was no longer fertile) Had no written language. Left no real lasting influence. Absolutely none of the architectural landmarks you'd expect from a civilization, let alone an empire.

    Sure their organization of a semi-democratic confederacy was impressive, but they didn't really do anything with it.

    Lets face it, north of Meso-America, noone ever reached a significant level of cultural and technological development. They are not significant. I understand the urge to romanticize north American natives, but lets recognize it for what it is. A people about 3,000 years behind the times at first contact.
     
  16. Shirastro

    Shirastro The ruler of the Gnomes

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    Ye but Celts left at least some heritage to the modern world, and influenced the development of Europe directly or indirectly in some way.

    Native American (AKA Indians, for all of you who are getting confused by the definition) were simply wiped out.
    And no, those few boozers left in the camps don't count.

    Quiet sad actually.
     
  17. paydro

    paydro Warlord

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    Hello Everyone.

    I think this is an excellent question, both for fun and for gameplay. I think the best way to help the OP (if he's still reading) wouldn't be to list out the civs
    the best thing that would help the OP would be Munch's method (listing out by continent) because of course he's going to have to narrow the list based on gameplay concerns. I feel like just a listing of the countries that really should not be excluded if at all possible would be the best. I also think that Iranon's approach is best: pick one of similar cultures, no Rome+Greece, just one.

    My own list:
    1. China. Enormously long history as a major power, from ancient to modern times, huge cultural contributions, dominance over a ridiculously large area.
    2. Romans. Greeks were great and all, but the Romans rose to power (semi)independent of the Greeks and had their own political structures. It was mostly the fact that the Romans liked their gods, art, and sense of history that we still think of the Greeks as being enormously important. The Romans formed the foundation of western civilization. If they hadn't broken apart they'd be #1.
    3. England. Enormous empire, industrial revolution, hugely influential culturally, about 400 years as a major world power, and with the time bias to the game (how the years slow down) that's almost as good as the Romans.
    4. Egypt. Another very long history, though they weren't so important after ancient times. Mostly this is a vote for them over the Babylonians/Sumerians, who had shorter runs.
    5. America. Current most important nation, dominated most of a century, globally important culturally and economically.
    6. India. Spent a long time as a colony, and hasn't been strongly united very long, but they're very important today, and their culture is of enormous importance to about a billion people.
    7. Arabs. Enormously important scientifically, still a fairly coherent "culture" across a very large area, second-most popular religion in the world. Historical powerhouse for a while as well. This pick subsumes the Turks, as well.
    8. Spain. Gigantic empire, most important nation in Europe for a few centuries, culturally of great importance, fell off in the last few centuries.
    9. Mongols. Significant mostly for the destruction they rained down rather than their cultural achievements. They allowed people to keep their religions and cultures, however, and so their long-term impact on that front is questionable.
    10. Poland. Just kidding. Seriously, I tried to fill this 10-spot, but most of the civs left either didn't rule long enough/"hard" enough (Dutch, Portugese, Native American, etc.), are fairly redundant with the ones above (Byzantines, Turks, Celts), or had limited cultural influence (Vikings, Zulu, etc.). If pressed, I would say Japan is the next-most deserving.

    A quick comment on England... even though I still rank them high, the argument that they set up their colonies to succeed is weak at best. The real reason those colonies were not economically devastated and were usually allowed to leave without much of a fight (at least Canada/Australia) was because they were colonized by white people, English people in particular. English colonization may have been less oppressive than French or Spanish, but it was still very damaging to the countries that were ruled by a small white elite (Nigeria, Ghana, etc.).
     
  18. Shirastro

    Shirastro The ruler of the Gnomes

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    Another civ most of you seem to forget is Byzantine.
    They virtually "invented" orthodox church and had enormous impact on Balkans and and pretty much all the Slavs and eastern Europe (except for Poland ofc) , directly or indirectly. Plus they played a vital role in Europe for a rather long period of time, and who know what the face of Europe and the rest of the world would be if it weren't for them

    Also, we could kinda count them as the "Roman empire strikes back" which only adds to the importance. :)
     
  19. DeaExMachina

    DeaExMachina Warlord

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    1) Persia. Greece may be known for enlightenment but it was Persia guided by Zorastorinism and the Cyrus Cylinder where equality first graced the civilized world.
    2) The British Empire, the sun never sets on the British Empire! From colonial America, South Africa, India, Australia and more the British have had a hand in building the modern world like few other civilizations.
    3) Germany, with two world wars and the sacing of Rome under its belt Germany has a strong and influential history.
    4) Russia, the spread of Communism, Sputnik and the Cold War arms race the Russian people have brought much to modern history.
    5) Ethiopia, the Kingdom of Aksum, Africa, the birthplace of human kind. No African power has ever ruled so completely as Aksum.
    6) France, cause the armies of the world have needed a practice ground since ancient times.
    7) China, one of the oldest continues nations in history. China is a growing power house that will effect the future world like few others.
    8) Japan, the land of the rising sun and tentacle monsters where you can purchase panties from vending machines with your cellphone (its true), Japan is not on the cutting edge of technological innovation it is technological innovation. Their work in robotics and application of technology for personal use is shaping modern consumerism.
    9) America, cause you need someone in the Americas and you might as well have the world best bully since Rome to fill it up.
    10) Greece, cause like some people think they are important to history. Even though they really aren't. (glory hogs >_>)
     
  20. danieldaniel

    danieldaniel Unsinnschmierer

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    He he, good you have the suit on...

    Aragón didn't have anything to do with the Americas, they were not even allowed to go there until the XVIII century, America was Castilla's part, while Aragón had their stuff in the mediterranian.
     

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