Hiawatha an absolute nightmare on Emperor now

[ahawk]

I don't know what the last patch did, but suddenly, Hiawatha tends to dominate any Emperor game I see him in unless he gets plopped down in a group of war-mongers.

Example 1:

It's AD 1000, and he's beating me in production by ~100 on the demographics score. And I'm Catherine (Russia) and have a few horse tiles and a few iron tiles.


Example 2:

It's AD 1440, around turn 200 in a normal-speed game, and I'm at 41% for technology on the demographics screen. He's at ~59%, has just entered the Modern Era according to a pop-up, and the average tech percentage is only 44% (meaning it's not just me lagging behind the rest of the pack). To top it off, I'm a super-tall Korea that has only been hindered by constant DoW from a fairly weak Dido.


I don't know what has happened, but all of a sudden, Hiawatha is just destroying everything in almost every game. Did they up the production bonus for the AI on Emperor? Because if they did, Hiawatha seems to blow everyone apart now, probably because if they upped AI production by a percentage, well, Hiawatha has always had more raw hammers than anyone else to take advantage of such bonuses.

Just ridiculous...

 

[smallfish]

Turn 202 - Hiawatha has entered Modern Era

Turn 207 - six turns before you finish Sistine Chapel, Hiawatha completes it even though he has no clue where your capital is (no embassies, inland cap)

fake edit: he will die in fire

 

[Tachii]

Getting Sistine Chapel at T207 is a bit late tho... I usually finish it by around T170ish?

Seems Iroquois went back to its vanilla roots; expand like mad and often one of the first to runaway because of their iron-less Mohawks.

 

[Syntax Error]

One thing I noticed with Hiawatha is that even pre-patch, he expands so much that I find my Tall Science empire had to catch up a bit to him. On Emperor.

The gold saved on roads, Ironless swords and mega production facilitates such a city spam.

 

[smallfish]

Getting Sistine Chapel at T207 is a bit late tho... I usually finish it by around T170ish?

Seems Iroquois went back to its vanilla roots; expand like mad and often one of the first to runaway because of their iron-less Mohawks.

Getting Sistine was more of an afterthought - I was doing bottom techs and then switching to upper techs (for Astro) and then back to bottom before finally heading towards Banking... yeah I should have just focused on getting the bottom parts (all the way to Gunpowder/Chemistry, for instance) done, and gone full warmonger on my warmonger neighbors Washington and Moctezuma. As it stands, it was... pretty interesting having to fight Minutemen with nothing but trebuchets, comp bows, Pikemen and Horsemen/Knights, in jungle heavy terrain.

I also find it fascinating he was able to take out most of Wu Zetian's core cities while she had her Chus (I think; it was on T144)

 

[Tachii]

I'm often scared of Wu for the wrongful assumption that she could remotely control her CKNs as well as a human would. Often times her CKNs run away at the sight of a knight unless she has like 4 all in LoS or something. AI uses longbowmen much better tho.

 

[Villager720]

Even before the patch Hiawatha was always been a runaway in my games unless hes knocked out early or cant expand.

 

[Zenstrive]

When G&K first arrived, Hiawatha turned more docile, just like other CIVs. Bu I noticed in the last month that civs like Siam, Russia, and Iroquois had returned to their expansive roots. And Hiawatha is the most expansive civs there is due to its unique traits. I always shudder everytime I meet him.

 

[loki75]

Yep, pre fall patch, the AI took a bit of time to actually launch the settler spamming routine, probably prioritirising other buildings or units. That gave you more space to install your '4 city' empire . Now, they are begining earlier and they are unstoppable unless you go to war.

 

[smallfish]

I'm often scared of Wu for the wrongful assumption that she could remotely control her CKNs as well as a human would. Often times her CKNs run away at the sight of a knight unless she has like 4 all in LoS or something. AI uses longbowmen much better tho.

Yeah, in that game, apparently one of the Militaristic CSes Hiawatha has in his camp has the Longbow UU. Need to check whether it was within range of his early territories, but if so, it could partly explain why Wu wasn't doing so well.

Also, this Hiawatha I'm having is MING-BOGGLING NUTS. Literally. I think you could swap him for an Immortal Runaway and you might not even notice. Its been a long while since I watched AIs pull off cross-continental invasions, but this is the closest thus far.

He was rampaging monster who entered Atomic Era in T238

Spoiler :

So naturally I was curious as to how far he would go for a Domination-style victory... first attempt with bribery failed, he simply won't go it alone even though he could, so I discussed with him whether war with Gandhi (he was in late Renaissance, going Industrial) was okay and he said

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

No room to prepare, just straight away war.

T276 - Hiawatha enters Information Era

T278 - Delhi falls to Iroquois

Spoiler :

Well, his mood towards me changed. Originally, it was "Neutral Hostile" in which war was always a short hop away from starting. That was why I decided to take Order instead of ole fashioned Autocracy - it helped me boost relations with Hiawatha, and a common denouncement really helped repair relations (he backstabbed me previously)

Spoiler :

War with Gandhi involved me... killing all of his scout units that attempted to uncover my lands

And he gave in easily and understandably

Spoiler :

Negotiations with Hiawatha... eventually we settled for 460 gold and 6 gpt (IIRC), and this set me back on the path of making him my "best" buddy

Spoiler :

More denouncements, also note the Iroquois cities on my continent

Spoiler :

But Hiawatha was still Neutral, but at least his stance and tone was MUCH more friendlier than before

Getting closer to forming COMINTERN... now with both of us "declaring war" on Moctezuma

Spoiler :

It was pretty one-sided thing, especially when Hiawatha brought in his aerial siege trains

Spoiler :

While heavy fighting ensued (well, fighting for Carthage involved holding the border instead of deep push), Hiawatha decides that a second attempt at DoF was to be made with me

Spoiler :

Good thing because he brought in some really heavy firepower

Spoiler :

And then he did what I haven't seen folks around here mention much - he liberated a long dead civ. That's right - a super aggressive AI runaway from another continent LIBERATES a civilization who got wiped out by America and Aztecs

Spoiler :

Then something else happened that showed me how morally bankrupt AIs are. Yes, even towards his grateful friends, Hiawatha knew that there were no friends to be had in the world

Spoiler :

But at least he was kind enough to provide me the opening to snatch more territory (this cap contained Statue of Zeus and Brandenburg Gate)

Spoiler :

No such luck for Teotihuacan, however.

This was where Phoenician Heritage's free insta-harbors came in really handy in connecting ex-Aztec capital to Carthage

Spoiler :

Also, even though Hiawatha liberated Babylon, it still wasn't my friend, and I had no intention of letting more civs exist ingame even as buffers

Spoiler :

But the key thing to take note is the humongous size of this runaway and its insane teching

Spoiler :

Onondaga is around six tiles close to the coast to the far east... I would love atomics, but I guess artillery, Battleships and Bombers will be all that I can rely upon to snatch victory before UN

 

[ense7en]

Scarey stuff, good luck with that game.

Course, if Hiawatha is dumb enough to build UN you can definitely win

If he's smart enough to build the Spaceship or try to wipe you out then yeah, i'd say it'll be a tough comeback?

 

[smallfish]

Scarey stuff, good luck with that game.

Course, if Hiawatha is dumb enough to build UN you can definitely win

If he's smart enough to build the Spaceship or try to wipe you out then yeah, i'd say it'll be a tough comeback?

Danke, likewise with your French Immortal!

Nah, I don't think I'd be willing enough to sell everything but the sink to get 'em all. Once was quite enough, and its been a long time since I had a showdown with a Hiawatha this size. I'll see whether I can rushbuy stuff from Tenochtitlan (barracks/armory/mil academy - then bombers) and do the final push - with luck, Hiawatha wouldn't build UN until mid-T300s so there should be sometime for me yet.

As for comeback... well, worst thing happens, there's always that longer term option.

 

[Tachii]

Wow information era at T276 on Emperor? That's pretty beefed up. I usually win a cultural game pre-patch around that time and usually the farthest I've seen an AI go was Atomic era on Immortal. D:

 

[smallfish]

Wow information era at T276 on Emperor? That's pretty beefed up. I usually win a cultural game pre-patch around that time and usually the farthest I've seen an AI go was Atomic era on Immortal. D:

yeah, Hiawatha is hardcore techer. Immortal Sejong on his own continent with enough space to REX could manage T313 Science Victory.

Emperor Hiawatha who wiped out everyone but me and Washington and spammed cities everywhere won T317 Science Victory.

But what was even more super unexpected was... the way he won:

Spoiler :

Yep, he completed last two spaceship parts *on the same turn*

Now we come to the really last part of the game, tbh. I tried selling him 5 aluminium for 225g, but Hiawatha would only buy them for 195g. Then I broke a promise with him to not steal techs... and he would not do an early renewal of our DoF at all.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

4 more turns to Radar, then Rocketry to upgrade all my artilleries, and I'm totally smashing into Onondaga

I don't think I can afford to wait... gunline of Iroquois battleships spotted prowling near the Vatican City, and he has Mech Inf/Rocket Arty in Teotihuacan plus his air force.

Spoiler :

 

[Mrdarklight]

Hiawatha has become a runaway civ in my games almost every time he appears. Through some combination of war and endless expansion he ends up with cities everywhere. He never stops putting up cities. The kicker is that he is usually friendly to me until I DOW him.

 

[atarihuana]

if you see hiwatha or cathrine, go get em! aim for the eyes!

 

[Mrdarklight]

I haven't had too much trouble with Catherine. The other Civ that tends to run away with it in my games is France, but not nearly as badly as the Iroquois. I was trying to win a culture victory as Sweden and had four nice big cities, but he was going to launch a spaceship well before I could win a culture victory. I don't think I have what it takes for a culture win. Even the Inca were beating me in policies and they had like 10 cities.

 

[Elz Majesto]

What I hate about Hiawatha, is this...
When I play aggressive and warmongering, he is not in my game.
When I play peaceful and tall, he rears his ugly head in a game, and proceeds to settle and then conquer more then half of the world and then declares war on me and destroy what I fought so hard for.

I get so pissed when I play as Genhis and Keshik the world over, and I cant find a Hiawatha to piss on

 

[Mrdarklight]

I think I'll manually include him in my next game just so I can smack his smarmy tree-hugging ass around.

 

[sufficiency]

278 Information era isn't even remotely fast, IMO.