Hidden Nationality for land unit (BtS)

[hun+celt]

I'm looking to make a land unit that can attack and be attacked without starting a war, just like a privateer does on water. I set the hidden nationality and always hostile tags to 1, however this resulted in a unit that would be attacked by other civs but will not attack another (friendly) civ's unit when I move into it's occupied square. This takes all the fun out of the idea. Any ideas on how to help me wage consequence-free warfare would be greatly appreciated.

 

[maverick_mw]

I would be wary of trying to do this. I remember doing this in Civ3 and the AI went totally nuts, building nothing but my modded invisible units and constantly sending wave after wave against each other, regardless of "normal" diplomatic relations.

Privateers aren't handled particulaly well by the AI in Civ4 so I doubt this would be any better.

 

[hun+celt]

Yeah - I tried it in C3 too. It made for some horrific late game non-wars that left everyone badly savaged. I loved it. My goal this time is to make this unit a national unit, thereby limiting the wave effect, and it won't be invisible so it's opportunity to do damage will be short lived. My goal is to simulate a foreign-fighter insurgency where a combination of spies and combatants can destabilize a rival Civ (a purely fictional and hypothetical scenario, of course...). Having it require a prereq building (security bureau, training camp, religious shrine, etc) would also limit the ability to just churn these units out.

Again, anyone have any suggestions on what tags I need to modify?

 

[cephalo]

Yeah - I tried it in C3 too. It made for some horrific late game non-wars that left everyone badly savaged. I loved it. My goal this time is to make this unit a national unit, thereby limiting the wave effect, and it won't be invisible so it's opportunity to do damage will be short lived. My goal is to simulate a foreign-fighter insurgency where a combination of spies and combatants can destabilize a rival Civ (a purely fictional and hypothetical scenario, of course...). Having it require a prereq building (security bureau, training camp, religious shrine, etc) would also limit the ability to just churn these units out.

Again, anyone have any suggestions on what tags I need to modify?

Let me tell you what I don't like about these units. They have a few of these in FFH2 so I've seen certain kinds of undesirable consequences. Normally, a nation is responsible for any harm that comes to people within it's borders and is expected to deal with any criminals threatening the peace. The idea that you can sign an 'open borders' agreement and invite visitors in to your lands to be slaughtered by 'non-aligned' forces, and not be held responsible, is not very realistic at all.

The Taliban tried to say after 9/11, "It wasn't us who attacked America, it was Al-Qeada... *shrug*." It didn't work.

 

[hun+celt]

Without turning this into a full blown thread on sub-national combatants and their effect on international relations, saying "it's not realistic" flys in the face of history. US pilots fought Imperial Japan in China/Bhurma before we declared war on each other, Chinese and Soviet troops and pilots fought the US in Korea and Vietnam without a declaration of war, Soviet troops fought Saudi and other Arab mujaheddin in Afghanistan while maintaining "normal" diplomatic relations with those countries, Iran (allegedly) has combatants killing US forces in Iraq and we haven't declared war with them yet---I think that's enough examples for now.

There are mods both public and private that deal with slavery, genocide, drugs and crime, child soldiers...in short all the truly savage, vile and brutal aspects of humanity which shape the course of history as much as all the best traits of human nature. Some of these I like and will incorporate them into my own scenarios, some are interesting and may trigger creative efforts in others even though the original idea is discarded, and some I dislike for reasons of balance, micromanagement or just personal bias. At the end of the day, this is just a game and this is a change that I would like to implement for myself. If you don't like the idea, that's fine...don't implement it in your game. All I'm asking is if any programmers out there (who have far more skill, knowlege and ability than I could hope for) could give me any ideas HOW to implement it for myself.

 

[Kael]

I'm looking to make a land unit that can attack and be attacked without starting a war, just like a privateer does on water. I set the hidden nationality and always hostile tags to 1, however this resulted in a unit that would be attacked by other civs but will not attack another (friendly) civ's unit when I move into it's occupied square. This takes all the fun out of the idea. Any ideas on how to help me wage consequence-free warfare would be greatly appreciated.

You should also set the bRivalTerritory flag.

 

[cephalo]

I'm not saying that mercs don't have a place in history, but you might consider a scheme to automatically show their colors while in home territory. Otherwise, you can end up with some huge, and very silly, battles between your allies and your mercs in the middle of your empire, often when you least expect it.

I had once prepared a large merc invasion force to raid an enemy, and while I wasn't looking my other 'friendly' neighbor passing through wiped it out and I had to start over. It's like hey, you guys should say something before attacking people in my country...

 

[hun+celt]

@ Kael - thanks for the help. I'll have to try that when I get home. EDIT: I reset the rival territory flag and still no ability to attack. Any chance this might require more than just XML?


@ cephalo - I'm not saying there aren't tactical disadvantages to this type of unit, but there is a definite strategic value to keeping things hidden even from your "friends". In my mod this unit is limited to 5 at a time and comes in at Radio with a base strength of 16 and Guerrilla 1 (hills and cities being the favored terrain of insurgents). Coming in as a conteporary of Infantry/Marines but 20% weaker, this is not a unit that can substitute as an invasion force. However, they CAN weaken your enemy preceding a conventional invasion by pillaging his infrastructure and tying up his units chasing bandits instead of guarding his borders. And, under the principle that todays friend is tomorrows enemy, having a unit that allows you to keep your frinds strong--but not TOO strong--is a powerful tool. And if your "ally" stumbles on that pack of insurgents in the middle of your territory? Well, at least you have some plausible deniability. Casualties and setbacks are simply the cost of this type of warfare.

 

[HG_CassiusA]

I have made such a unit and my friends in the World of Civilization project (which I also contribute to) tell me the AI uses it quite well. The WoC current version is overpowered though, due to there not being a limit at the moment, but the WoC version is not my latest version limited to 10.

 

[hun+celt]

I'm glad to hear that your unit works (and is used) correctly, BUT...
1. Mine still doesn't
2. Could you tell me what tags you changed apart from the ones I already listed?
or
3. Could you tell me what you called the unit and what mod it's in so that I can download/dissect/recreate what you did to make your unit work?

THEN we can happily let this develop into a "I like these units"/"I hate these units" discussion.

 

[cephalo]

When you created the XML entry, you didn't happen to copy and paste from one of the non-combat units like workers and settlers etc.? Maybe you have some residue left over from what the XML entry used to be.

 

[hun+celt]

Nope - I did a c&p of the Marine UnitInfos, then looked at what tags the privateer used that none of the other ships did and duplicated these in my new unit. I can pillage and capture workers without declaring war, a "friendly" civ can attack my unit without declaring war and an opponent's unit appears under the barbarian flag when I find it but when I try to move into a square with a rival civ's combat unit I simply stack with those units. Oddly, rival units that I'm stacked with won't attack me until I move to a neighboring square (although I'm sure that's some quirk of the game mechanics).

 

[HG_CassiusA]

I think the main difference between my Guerilla unit and your unit is that mine is invisible to everything but other Guerillas.