Historical Inaccuracies with Persia article

[shahreevar]

Oh come on you sound like a German arguing that Germany is the origin of Germanic culture.

Cultures change over time, peoples change over time, its very common for indiginous people to want to claim their culture is the original but evolution is inevitable. The situation in Iran is no different than the one in China - it may look like the culture has endured for millenia to them, but an outsider can see the changes. This isn't a slam against Iran or its people, but a counter to your arguments. You sound like you are arguing that the culture of Iran is the one pure culture of the world, one that has survived wholly intact over the millenia. I'm just pointing out that all things evolve over time for better or for worse and that there's nothing wrong with that - in fact evolution of culture is a good thing.

i dont think he is arguing that the Persian culture is the one pure one. albeit his tone reminds of the those who have been heavily influences by the Persian/Iranian Nationalists. so you may get the idea that he thinks we are better that all others.

i have to admit that you tend to do that when 1. you take pride in where you come from, you are proud of your history, the contribution of your people to the world cuture, you are proud of the Great things, ideas, people, ... your country has produced.and 2. when considring all this you see all those downplayed, neglected, and put aside. you witness the other people's Generalizations, and assumptions about you culture, and people, and thus you tend to get upset, and try to tell everyone that "no no. we are not bad/arab/terrorist/etc!!! we are Avecina, and Cyrus, and Biriuni, we are Hafez, and Rumi, Razi, and Farabi, we are Kharazmi, and Khayyam, we are..."

p.s you should have read his all he wrote, and then make you comment.

 

[shahreevar]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but didn't Persia get overrun by both the Turks AND the Mongols as well towards the Middle Ages? Not to mention the Parthians, Arabs, Greeks, and the Romans as well?

I would suspect the culture of Asia Minor and Arabian Peninsula to be as heterogenus as any Mediterranian country. Its doubtful the "Original" Persian culture is intact - of course that depends upon what you define the "original" Persian culture.

i already metioned that before, and no its not fuel to the fire. its a fact, and a part of our history, and i agree with you that evolution is good thing. yes the original Persian culture is not intact,e.g. my name is arabic (not my CFC one, that actually the persian month i was born in, thats virgo for you )
and when i speak Persian, i use arabic words, and names 30% of the times. of course i cant speak arabic, and i dont understand 99.999999999% of it.

note to CyrusIII85, arabs were not all that barbaric,and uncultured. in fact arabic itslef is a beautiful language and very expressive. what the persian did for it though is huge. the wrote down the laws, and the grammer for it, and when the Persian poetry emerged in the 9th century, it borrowed arabic forms of poetry,and at the same time it influenced the Arabic lingo immensly in the form of ideas, and rythm.

 

[shahreevar]

i think 5 posts in a row is enough for one night, gooz night everyone!!

 

[AngryPants]

At this point I would like to point out that the civilopedia is not a textbook. I would also introduce you to the following popular saying: Its just a game.

 

[cuchulain]

The OP has a valid point. Iran is not arabic. I don't think its unreasonable to have the wording changed. That the OP seems takes offense to being called arabic is another issue, but to each his/her own. I

 

[troytheface]

iranians calling themselves persian is like italians calling themselves romans.
i think they should go further back and call themselves single celled organisms.
Nationalism is alive and well- read scotsmen proud of their scottish heritage- as if they had anything to do with it - greeks proud of the ancients accomplishments- although most greeks look like a hybrid mix of turkish. Notice some with like a speck of native american blood use it as some sort of identity booster.

 

[Sidhe]

Celtic influences Sidhe(the celtic Gods) Cuchulain a celtic King. mmm perhaps there are more influences thanb I thought I am Romano Celtic, Viking, Norman(also of Viking heritage) Angle/Jute saxon heritage personally and I would still call myself English; would the Americans call themselves German French greek itallian etc,etc,etc. A country is more than the sum of it's parts be it Arab persian etc.

The Normans where as far as population goes a tiny minority about 5% of the country would of been Norman(mostly nobility) And as I mentioned before Norman comes from the words Northman as they originally Invaded from Viking lands so they aren't really French, the celts on the other hand are thoguht to have originated from the eastern French Alps.

Persia was not crumbling when Alexander invaded it may have been unstable but then the wolf always judges the best time to attack it's prey.

The colossal size of the armies put in front of Alexander and his political and financial manipulation of many Satraps was nothing short of Genius, but then What would you expect of a child prodigy who was educated by aristotle himself? Persia was not toppled from unsteady feet, it fell, and as you say even the Persians could not fail to be impressed by eskanders achievements. I believe the Tukish call him Iskander or something similar too? Not sure. Saying That it was Philip also known as the great, who united the greeks, he inherited a country on the brink of ruin turned the tables on his neighbours and by politics and war solidified Greece behind him, had He not died in a freek accident Alexanders conquests and glory would of been shared with his father.

Iran is an unusual country a country perfectly happy with its theocracy but which is criticised for its beliefs none the less?

In the middle ages Arabic technology especially optics (telescopes) and other military and academic pursuits were the envy of the world as were its literature and poetry. They chose to abandon the pursuit of science in favour of Religion where as the west chose the opposite. Which is better off, neither probably it all depends on your persepective.

 

[Breakmelikeglas]

None of us are ever going to be satisfied by a summary of our heritage, culture and history confined to 7ish paragraphs. Take what you can get.
However, if you feel so passionate about this i would consider contacting firaxis games and offering to rewrite the Persian entry free of charge. Perhaps they could include it in a patch it would be easy to do I would assume.

 

[EdwardTking]

"In a series of decisive battles between 633 and 642, the Arabs conquered
and destroyed the Persian Empire; since this time, Persia (modern Iran)
has largely belonged to the Arab world. The customs and religion of
ancient Persia were destroyed and the population absorbed into the
surrounding Islamic culture; only a few remnants survive today."

by

"In a series of decisive battles between 633 and 642, the Arabs eventually defeated the Persian Empire and obtained control of lowland Mesopotomia. The ancient religions of ancient Persia were largely replaced as the population adapted Islam. The Persians absorbed Arabic thinking and in turn influenced the Arabs. However the Persian people retained their language Farsi. Since that time, Persia (modern Iran) has belonged to the Islamic world."

 

[AngryPants]

In the middle ages Arabic technology especially optics (telescopes) and other military and academic pursuits were the envy of the world as were its literature and poetry. They chose to abandon the pursuit of science in favour of Religion where as the west chose the opposite. Which is better off, neither probably it all depends on your persepective.

The West has not abandoned Religion, at least not on my side of the Atlantic. I try not to go down these roads, but I can't let that sentence slide. Where would you rather live? Honestly, ask yourself that. Or, if thats too personal, compare the number of "Westerners" immigrating to the Arab world vs the number of Arabs immigrating to the Western world ...

 

[Eiba]

In case anyone was interested, this issue of Persia's civilopedia entry has been discussed before. Here's a link for those curious, and considering how long ago it was made, it seems Firaxis either doesn't care, or has been to busy with other fixes.

In any case, Persia's a fascinating subject, a discussion about it is always an interesting read.

 

[cyrusIII85]

In case anyone was interested, this issue of Persia's civilopedia entry has been discussed before. Here's a link for those curious, and considering how long ago it was made, it seems Firaxis either doesn't care, or has been to busy with other fixes.

In any case, Persia's a fascinating subject, a discussion about it is always an interesting read.

NO!!!! I swear to god I searched for it and it never came up. Okay I guess since this subject has been discussed before, no real reason to keep it up. Mod, lock this thread.

 

[bigphesta]

all your civ are belong to us

 

[cyrusIII85]

all your civ are belong to us

? Can you speak properly???

 

[Artanis]

? Can you speak properly???

Somebody set up us the bomb!

 

[cyrusIII85]

"In a series of decisive battles between 633 and 642, the Arabs conquered
and destroyed the Persian Empire; since this time, Persia (modern Iran)
has largely belonged to the Arab world. The customs and religion of
ancient Persia were destroyed and the population absorbed into the
surrounding Islamic culture; only a few remnants survive today."

by

"In a series of decisive battles between 633 and 642, the Arabs eventually defeated the Persian Empire and obtained control of lowland Mesopotomia. The ancient religions of ancient Persia were largely replaced as the population adapted Islam. The Persians absorbed Arabic thinking and in turn influenced the Arabs. However the Persian people retained their language Farsi. Since that time, Persia (modern Iran) has belonged to the Islamic world."

Good change...except I would replace "Arabic thinking" with...something else . I really want to say that Persians absorbed what Persians agreed with and was actually an improvement over what they previously had, like changing the script from Palhavi to Arabic-Perso.

 

[cyrusIII85]

Somebody set up us the bomb!

Oh...so why exactly do people say it? Sorry if I'm being dumb...but I keep on looking for exactly what it means when people use it and I find nothing...

 

[cyrusIII85]

i dont think he is arguing that the Persian culture is the one pure one. albeit his tone reminds of the those who have been heavily influences by the Persian/Iranian Nationalists. so you may get the idea that he thinks we are better that all others.

i have to admit that you tend to do that when 1. you take pride in where you come from, you are proud of your history, the contribution of your people to the world cuture, you are proud of the Great things, ideas, people, ... your country has produced.and 2. when considring all this you see all those downplayed, neglected, and put aside. you witness the other people's Generalizations, and assumptions about you culture, and people, and thus you tend to get upset, and try to tell everyone that "no no. we are not bad/arab/terrorist/etc!!! we are Avecina, and Cyrus, and Biriuni, we are Hafez, and Rumi, Razi, and Farabi, we are Kharazmi, and Khayyam, we are..."

p.s you should have read his all he wrote, and then make you comment.

Very well explained... and no I don't view myself better than anyone else. Although I find it hard to believe that you don't have the same complex ... I thought all Persians had it .

 

[Artanis]

Oh...so why exactly do people say it? Sorry if I'm being dumb...but I keep on looking for exactly what it means when people use it and I find nothing...

It's the most famous example of "Engrish", a.k.a. a badly botched translation from an East Asian language (usually Japanese, as is the case here) into English. I don't know why bigphesta posted it, but that's what it is.

 

[cyrusIII85]

The colossal size of the armies put in front of Alexander and his political and financial manipulation of many Satraps was nothing short of Genius, but then What would you expect of a child prodigy who was educated by aristotle himself? Persia was not toppled from unsteady feet, it fell, and as you say even the Persians could not fail to be impressed by eskanders achievements. I believe the Tukish call him Iskander or something similar too? Not sure. Saying That it was Philip also known as the great, who united the greeks, he inherited a country on the brink of ruin turned the tables on his neighbours and by politics and war solidified Greece behind him, had He not died in a freek accident Alexanders conquests and glory would of been shared with his father.

Iran is an unusual country a country perfectly happy with its theocracy but which is criticised for its beliefs none the less?

In the middle ages Arabic technology especially optics (telescopes) and other military and academic pursuits were the envy of the world as were its literature and poetry. They chose to abandon the pursuit of science in favour of Religion where as the west chose the opposite. Which is better off, neither probably it all depends on your persepective.

I wouldn't say genius at all. In fact he mimicked the strategy of Persians over that of Greeks. He properly utilized diplomacy and realized that excluding Persians from the government would cause his empire to quickly collapse. Lets face it; Greeks weren't as good administratively with respect to huge areas of land. As such, he brought all of peoples of empire together (like Cyrus), utilized fast moving cavalry (also true of light armored middle-eastern warfare instead of the rather slow paced armored Greek Hoplites). As such, I would say he simply expanded on the all ready present Persian genius ideas.

Many historians, however, would disagree with your assessment of Persia. It was rocked by both incompetent leaders and revolts. Darius III I view as the first competent ruler in a long time (he raised an army faster than Cyrus himself) although he was too late and couldn't save Iran.

I also disagree that Iranians view him as one of "us". Keep in mind he's called like the “nine-horned demon” in Iran and burned down Persepolis, the greatest architectural and cultural center in the world at the time. Although the Shahnameh tried to incorporate him as a Persian king, I don't think many people in Iran view him as such. I could be wrong though...

Philip was a very unstable man, so I find it doubtful if he could have led as well as Alexander...

I would also caution you with what you pronounce as "Arabic". Al-Hazi (or something like that), the person you seem to refer to, I recall is called Persian in Wilkipedia. While I am wary of Wilkis possible flaws, I find scholarly articles which pronounce Kharwizimi as Arabic to be just as unreliable. I think people also need to keep in mind that Mesopotamia was settled by Iranians (Baghdad, the capital of Iraq, was once a Persian village) once. As such, simply because a person was born in Iraq during the Islamic time period doesn't mean they are Arabs.

The most notable Arabs, as far as I recall, are the "father of chemistry" and the mathematician who worked on predicting the Nile.