Historical Inaccuracies with Persia article

[cyrusIII85]

note to CyrusIII85, arabs were not all that barbaric,and uncultured. in fact arabic itslef is a beautiful language and very expressive. what the persian did for it though is huge. the wrote down the laws, and the grammer for it, and when the Persian poetry emerged in the 9th century, it borrowed arabic forms of poetry,and at the same time it influenced the Arabic lingo immensly in the form of ideas, and rythm.

It's a rather hard language...and I believe that shows inefficiency.

Let me give you an example of how Arabs acted, and it all revolves around the word "Salaam". You might recognize it as the word for hello, and Iranians do as well. However, as you might or might not know, the true meaning is "peace" in Arabic. Why is this the case that "hello" and "peace" are the same? It's because, due to the warfaric nature of Arabs at the time, Arabs had to call out "peace" before they approach someone else or else their approach would signify an attack. The readiness to kill and to attack, simply by one person approaching another shows how bad the situation was.

I compare pre-Islamic Arabs to Mongolians before Genghis Khan. It's actually a very suitable comparison...

 

[cyrusIII85]

It's the most famous example of "Engrish", a.k.a. a badly botched translation from an East Asian language (usually Japanese, as is the case here) into English. I don't know why bigphesta posted it, but that's what it is.

That's what I thought too...thanks anyway.

 

[shahreevar]

Very well explained... and no I don't view myself better than anyone else. Although I find it hard to believe that you don't have the same complex ... I thought all Persians had it .

oh no, now you are reading my mind
i guess i do have it, but i try not to be influenced by it all the time. its a form of ethnocentricity, and thus it closes you mind.

 

[cyrusIII85]

LOL...I didn't know that Xshayathiya was also active here! I first met him on the Prince of Persia forums. Does anyone know if he's still active? Anyway, it's SOOOO erie that we mention nearly the exact same things...

I was just wondering whether or not you've seen him lately. I found out he was the one who posted the original thread on this...and I defintely agree with the ethnocentricity idea...but Iranians WERE pretty good in nearly all respects .

 

[The Q-Meister]

CyrusIII85 - I am extremely grateful you have come here and given us your perspective. It is not everyday we can hear from an intelligent, knowledgable person about a history and a culture few Westerners know much about. I think, whether one agrees with everything you say or not, we should be very thankful to hear a point of view and perspective we do not commonly get in our own biased media.

So thank you and please continue with your contributions to these forums. I cannot say I will always agree with you but I can say you will always hold my interest.

(I know this if off-topic but I am especially curious with your opinions regarding the current state of affairs with your new President and the current situation in Iran. If you would rather PM me about it then please do so if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts. Thanks.)

EDIT: Shahreevar - I also appreciate your contributions as well! Keep it up!)

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

It's the most famous example of "Engrish", a.k.a. a badly botched translation from an East Asian language (usually Japanese, as is the case here) into English. I don't know why bigphesta posted it, but that's what it is.

Ummmm..... iirc, it was one of the sayings that you would see while playing Civ III (hence why it's posted on this site). I believe it would occur during diplomacy.... "All your base are belong to us."

But I will leave it to those with better search skills on the forums here to pull up the actual picture.

It's not that I don't care (I find the topic rather interesting), but how exactly is this thread in relation to playing cIV?

 

[The Q-Meister]

At this point I would like to point out that the civilopedia is not a textbook. I would also introduce you to the following popular saying: Its just a game.

I disagree.

Yes it is just a game but there is no reason why Firaxis cannot change a few factually incorrect statements. No one expect a "textbook" but historically inaccurate generalizations help no one either; I imagine if we were talking about making generalizations about American culture (ie "it's mainly just English culture...") or European culture you would be singing a different tune.

 

[Artanis]

Ummmm..... iirc, it was one of the sayings that you would see while playing Civ III (hence why it's posted on this site). I believe it would occur during diplomacy.... "All your base are belong to us."

I guess that'd explain why he posted it then. It's been a loooooooong time since I played Civ3, so I didn't remember that that game had quoted it. Thank you.

 

[shahreevar]

I disagree.

Yes it is just a game but there is no reason why Firaxis cannot change a few factually incorrect statements. No one expect a "textbook" but historically inaccurate generalizations help no one either; I imagine if we were talking about making generalizations about American culture (ie "it's mainly just English culture...") or European culture you would be singing a different tune.

it not that difficult a thing to ask really.

 

[Micky G]

The Persian empire in Alexander's time was quite different to the Iran of today however. The Persians were a tribe Aryan people who settled in the area next to the Persian gulf and were subject to the Medes until Cyrus the Great restored their indpenance.

 

[Sidhe]

CyrusIII85 - I am extremely grateful you have come here and given us your perspective. It is not everyday we can hear from an intelligent, knowledgable person about a history and a culture few Westerners know much about. I think, whether one agrees with everything you say or not, we should be very thankful to hear a point of view and perspective we do not commonly get in our own biased media.

So thank you and please continue with your contributions to these forums. I cannot say I will always agree with you but I can say you will always hold my interest.

(I know this if off-topic but I am especially curious with your opinions regarding the current state of affairs with your new President and the current situation in Iran. If you would rather PM me about it then please do so if you wouldn't mind sharing your thoughts. Thanks.)

EDIT: Shahreevar - I also appreciate your contributions as well! Keep it up!)

EDIT(to avoid confusion in future): I think we can all agree with that sentiment^^^WHS

The US media appears particularly biased and to me there viewpoint is little more than propoganda half the time. It's not quite the russian communist media but it's close. Suffice to say if I believed everything I watched on the news I would believe that Iran is a frigtheningly isolationist country bent on building nukes to point directly at any percieved threat.

As I'm not your average lazy westerner who likes his opinion spoon fed to him. I like to hear what is really happening in the world which is why I find the internet such a powerful tool for understanding other cultures.

And if Alexander was copying Persian military startegies why did he tear all the armies into little pieces and out think every Persian general that was sent against him, I think your viewpoint ios biased somewhat by the fact that Persia was the conquered not the conqueror

What about his method of neutralising Persian chariots by havin a rank of men advance at the horses with spears to stop them and then boxing them in, that's quite novel don't you think? Making chariots rredundant in every battle they appeared from then on.

 

[Older than Dirt]

Weren't the Medes and Persians extremely close politically and culturally? Wasn't it originally the Medo-Persian empire and then the Persians became predominant? How about the way they conquered Bayblon that night, eh? Was Alexander ever that clever? Alex was a great military leader but if he hadn't died aspirating his own puke (per rumor not confirmed by internet sources or CSI), could he have governed New Orleans ever? What's the big deal with Alex any way. His Pa developed the army and got the Greeks together. Xenephon told the Greeks the Persians could be had rather easily. By the way did Alex ever try to conquer the Kurds. I think he was too smart for that. (I am not to my knowledge Kurdish, Persian, Greek, or Samoan - but who knows?)

 

[linjon1]

"I think we can all agree with that sentiment.""

I don't think so.

 

[Sidhe]

Ok we can't all agree, fair enough. :/

It might be an idea to read up on Alexander. His death could have been caused by a multitude of reasons. A stroke, an epileptic fit. Over indulgence of wine. It's impossible to lable someone on hearsay.

 

[Sidhe]

Would you care to elaborate because to me that sentiment sounds frighteningly bigoted, I'm sure you don't think that finding out about other cultures and understanding people is wrong? Or do you? I must admit that is possibly the least defined worst post I've seen on my short time here. I'm sure you don't mean to come off like a bigot? Please explain? ;/

 

[Eigenvector]

If you want my opinion, and I'm sure you don't (especially after this comment), the response might have something to do with the unbelievably submissive tone that Sidhe took when addressing Cyrus. Not to mention the incredibly generalistic and sweeping statements about American media. But that's just my own opinion.

 

[illram]

Cyrus-
Your main argument re: the history of Persia is complex and often misunderstood, as well as often flat out wrong, is well taken and I partially agree with you. However, when you start saying things like this:

>>>>>>>>>>
[Arabs] had very little culture and no artistic identity
>>>>>>>>>>

or this

>>>>>>>>>>>
...maybe a person could ague that Greece was in fact influenced by Persia, but no person goes there because that would show that Asian cultures were actually superior to Western ones. But no, that's unacceptable
>>>>>>>>>>>

or other similar "derogatory" sounding remarks I've noticed in your posts (particularly the first one), I start to squirm a little and think you're going from legitimate argument territory to "I am better than you" territory. Hopefully you aren't trying to insinuate arabs, or greeks, or turks, or anyone else is somehow "inferior" or less historically important as the Persians.

And wasn't Baghdad Babylonian? As was most of mesopotamia? My memory of the history of the area was of it being very complex, not just Persian/Arab/Greek from right to left but several different ethnicities, for instance the Aryans, the Medians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Arabs from the peninsula, Lydians on the Aegean, Turks inland, basically all sorts of different ethnicities in the middle east/asia minor, so even saying Persia was all "Persians" is a little innaccurate, is it not?

Let me also add that I do recognize where you are coming from, because as half-Tunisian I am also "lumped" into being an "arab" when really people from that area (North Africa) are a variety of different ethnicities, the main one being Burbur.

To anyone else reading this that is interested in history, read "Creation" by Gore Vidal. An excellent book and a great introduction to the history of one of the high points of the Great Persian empire as well as of civilization as we know it.

 

[shahreevar]

Cyrus-
Your main argument re: the history of Persia is complex and often misunderstood, as well as often flat out wrong, is well taken and I partially agree with you. However, when you start saying things like this:

>>>>>>>>>>
[Arabs] had very little culture and no artistic identity
>>>>>>>>>>

or this

>>>>>>>>>>>
...maybe a person could ague that Greece was in fact influenced by Persia, but no person goes there because that would show that Asian cultures were actually superior to Western ones. But no, that's unacceptable
>>>>>>>>>>>

or other similar "derogatory" sounding remarks I've noticed in your posts (particularly the first one), I start to squirm a little and think you're going from legitimate argument territory to "I am better than you" territory. Hopefully you aren't trying to insinuate arabs, or greeks, or turks, or anyone else is somehow "inferior" or less historically important as the Persians.

And wasn't Baghdad Babylonian? As was most of mesopotamia? My memory of the history of the area was of it being very complex, not just Persian/Arab/Greek from right to left but several different ethnicities, for instance the Aryans, the Medians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Arabs from the peninsula, Lydians on the Aegean, Turks inland, basically all sorts of different ethnicities in the middle east/asia minor, so even saying Persia was all "Persians" is a little innaccurate, is it not?

Let me also add that I do recognize where you are coming from, because as half-Tunisian I am also "lumped" into being an "arab" when really people from that area (North Africa) are a variety of different ethnicities, the main one being Burbur.

To anyone else reading this that is interested in history, read "Creation" by Gore Vidal. An excellent book and a great introduction to the history of one of the high points of the Great Persian empire as well as of civilization as we know it.

right on!!! as a persian i agree with alomst all you say,and btw "Creation" is a great book, i really enjoyed reading it, and coudln't put it down. if you had read my previous posts, i did disagree with him on the Arab thing, it's an arrogance we Iranians carry due to our upbringing in a nationalistic society. heck, the persians think their Turkish, arab, and Kurdish countrymen are somewhat inferrior, or rather all people from rural aras are subjected to such treatment.

p.s. Baghdad was infact persian village (baghdad=given by God) wheather the Inhabitants were all pure persian, thats a rediculous statement.

 

[linjon1]

"I'm sure you don't mean to come off like a bigot? Please explain? ;/"

edit in:

Insult deleted by me.

You are not worth being warned over.

edit out:

"The US media appears particularly biased and to me there viewpoint is little more than propoganda half the time."

really??


"Suffice to say if I believed everything I watched on the news I would believe that Iran is a frigtheningly isolationist country bent on building nukes to point directly at any percieved threat"

Which Iran are you talking about?
the one where the leader says the holocaust didn't happen?

or this one?

"In a new turn, a prominent Iranian newspaper, Hamshahri, invited artists to enter a Holocaust cartoon competition, saying it wanted to see if freedom of expression - the banner under which many Western publications reprinted the prophet drawings - also applied to Holocaust images. "

Or do you mean the one that is throwing out an INTERNATIONAL nuke
watch group??

Yep...
They are just misunderstood over there.

 

[linjon1]

"Looks like the crazies have arrived."

Don't be so hard on yourself.


Let someone insult you and see how you react.