HN02-A The Pacifist Power of Religion

Got a chance to fit in a few turns tonight.

Things went pretty well....

Turn 1 - :sleep:

Turn 2 - Really isn't much to improve at Zhou. We can't farm the plains until civil service so I've got the pop working the forests. We have enough food right now from the fish, so I keep the workers building cottages in the other cities for now.

Turn 3 - Missionary born. Send him to Bangalore. I had to bring the northern galley that I had hoped to use to send the missionary to Rome down to protect our work boat from a barb galley that is floating around the southern part of the island.

Turn 4 - Alphabet in! Talk to Ceasar and we don't have anything he wants. So no tech trades right now. Finished exploring the Roman coast so I start the galley back to our waters. No obvious connections to any other land masses that I can see.

Turn 5 - Julius asks to trade pigs for ivory. Ick, War Elephants for Caesar. I don't think so. I manage to convince him that clams taste much better so he goes away happy. On another note, the fog is now busted on our entire landmass.

Turn 6 - Spread the faith in Bangalore.

Turn 7 - Lighthouse in Calcutta, start galley (we are going to need to protect the fishing boats).

Turn 8 - Ptolemy and Homer born in distant lands. Homer probably means that someone has Music now.

Turn 9 - A very nice gentleman shows up in Delhi....



he does his magic....



and we get a lovely prize...



Plus, CASH. research back up to 60%.

Turn 10 - :coffee:

The thinking behind going for Monarchy is that we are likely to be alone until optics and the best thing I can think to do is grow our cities as much as possible. Without many happy resources and with only one religion, Hereditary Rule will allow us to grow to our health limits, so my thinking is that as soon as we get HR (in about 4 turns), start putting unit builds in as the cities start reaching their happy limits. The added benefit is it will help our pitiful power rating as well.

There is room for a fairly decent city with fish and horses at the bottom of our island. We will probably be able to afford it by the time we get a settler out for it.

Keep building those missionaries and spamming the Romans with them.

Also, no slavery is going to make Bombay a problem (all food, no hammers). No production to speak of so we may want to think about replacing some of the cottages with workshops at some point.

Save is attached.
 
Great job on getting the Mahabodhi, Foolonthehill!

Got it.
 
950AD-1100AD The sound of silence...

1
The roman city of Ravena was struck by the lightning of Buddhism. In other news the Kong Miao was built by some barbarians somewhere beyond the end of the world.

2
Madras finishes a courthouse and starts a lighthouse.

4
The Sistine Chappel is built in the fog too.

5
Monarchy comes, revolt to Hereditary Rule. Research set to Civil Service for Bureaucracy. Julius, our closest friend among all friends we have, doesn't want to trade any of his techs for Monarchy.

8
Now Julius has Metal Casting, too. Still doesn't want to trade anything.

9
The demographics screen is obviously a counterfeit. Most likely the enemy's counter-intelligence has faked it :lol:



10
All roads lead to Rome, and we finally found it.

 
Pre-Turn
I took a look around but didn't see anything that seemed to need adjustment or change.

Turn 1
Madras completes the Lighthouse and Zhou completes the Courthouse. I start an archer in Madras and a Barracks in Zhou. I shift the copper miners and quarry workers to the sea for growth in Madras. We probably need to get some farms on the grasslands west of there once Civil Service is discovered. Our missionary spreads Buddhism to Rome.

Turn 2
Calcutta completes a Library and I start on a Courthouse. Delhi completes a missionary and starts on finishing a workboat. I send the missionary north to Bangalore.

Turn 3
Delhi completes the workboat and I send it north to Bangalore. Start on finishing the Lighthouse.

Turn 4
Bombay has reached its happy cap for now so I assign a second scientist to stop growth for now until another archer can be garrisoned there.

Turn 5
zzzzz

Turn 6
zzzzz

Turn 7
A Lighthouse completes in Delhi. I start on a Buddhist missionary.

Turn 8
zzzzz

Turn 9
A barracks is complete in Zhou. I start on an archer.

Turn 10
zzzzz

A mostly uneventful set of turns. We are in a definite builder phase lately. We probably need to be heading towards Optics soon for caravels so we can get out and meet the world. Picking up some of those cheap older techs like Polytheism would be good to see what else JC has over us. We have Monarchy on him right now but he doesn't seem interested in trading techs to us. Anyway, good job so far guys. I'm hoping to see that we're not all that far behind later on down the road.

Here's the updated roster:

Current Roster:
LuvToBuild -> fourth round completed
pigswill -> UP
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill -> on deck
omurtag -> third round completed
 
Got it. Only thing that ocurs to me having looked at the save is knocking out another settler to claim horsefish city before Jules pinches it. Oherwise continue as we were. 10 turns to civil service then head towards optics sounds right to me. We could also do with another worker at some point (only 3 so far) and power-rating is also a slight concern.
 
Bush clover in blossom waves
without spilling
a drop of dew​

Basho​

Greetings once again my companions. Since my last term of office the devout people of Delhi under the inspiration of the First Prophet have completed the Mahabodi - truly a marvellous edifice; the sacred plum tree still survives and still produces its blossom every spring. Little has happened to bestir our tranquility; may the Lady be blessed for the gift of peace. The acolyte pigswill has agreed to make a summary of the years of my stewardship.

1160. Zhou starts settler (10 turns); archer on hold. An archer moves from north towards Bombay.

1172. Islam FIDL.

1190. Roman galley heading south with a settler (we should get there first). Delhi produces missionary, heads north. Start another missionary.

1196. Archer arrives in Bombay. Scientist to cottage.

1202. Bangalore builds library, starts courthouse.

1208. Missionary arrives in rome island, heads north to explore. Jules offers fur for ivory, declined (though worth debating).

1214. Discover civil service, start metal casting. Revolt to bureaucracy. Notre Dame BIDL.

1220. Zhou builds settler, resumes archer. Delhi builds missionary, starts worker. Settler and missionary heading south (on goto) for hill east of tundra horses.

A thumbnail sketch of the Jewel of Enlightenment.
​
 
Wow. That was quick.

Very quiet set.

Turn 1 - Hanging Gardens is BIDL.

Turn 2 - Start Library in Zhou.
Founded Lahore (the fish/horse city).

Turn 3 - Cyrus shows up. Leading is score by quite a bit. He is at 1222 to Caesars 840 and our 772. He has nine techs showing on the trade screen, but we have nothing to trade to him. He asks for open borders and I accept.

Turn 4 - Worker finishes in Delhi, start library. After the library, we may want to start on some missionaries again.

Turn 5-7 - :sleep:

Turn 8 - Metal Casting finishes. Start Compass. Archer done in Madras, start Axe.

Turn 9 - :coffee:

Turn 10 - Compass in 6 turns. Here is the current trading screen....



Caesar will trade us everything but machinery for civil service. I was tempted to do it to help us catch up (and get 6 turns closer to optics) but I hesitated as it will give Caesar macemen. The deal will still be out there on the next turn if we decide we want it.

Save is attached.
 
Macemen may not be such a big deal with ceaser as it would be with other leaders coz maces aren't that huge an upgrade from praetorians. The solution to maces and praets is crossbows.
Now that we've got irrigation iron/desert city becomes a realistic option.
Cyrus' tech lead suggests that other continent may be peaceful multiciv tech-trading set-up.
 
Got it!

Any suggestions for the trading part? Should we trade at all?
 
LuvToBuild said:
We should probably be careful about trading with Cyrus. JC isn't too far ahead of us so trading with him is probably ok, especially since he is probably more inclined to trade with his brothers than Cyrus.
Click to expand...

I would go ahead and make the trade with Caesar. Pigswill makes a good point that macemen don't really make him that much more of a threat and I think we pick up three techs for civil service.
 
We met two neighbors, started the Colosus, made some trades with JC.

Turn 0
Bombay micromanaged for growth, since happiness allows it.
Bargaining with JC ... traded Monarchy for Mathematics + 30 Gold. (Sorry no screenshot)

Turn 1
Mansa Musa:



He got the circumnavigation bonus.

Another trade with JC (He is the only who doesn't have our tehcs)



Currency boosted slightly our income. Research set to 100% for a couple of turns.

Turn 3
Washington:



Turn 4
Compass --> Paper

Turn 6
Delhi Forge --> Colosus(8)

Turn 7
Forest near Delhis is cut, Colosus drops to 4 turns.

Turn 9 -(1334)
Cyrus is the first to Liberalism.

Turn 10 - 1340
Nothing happened. The Colosus is due in one turn.
 
Geez. We must have practically every teching demon we could get on this freaking map. Well, I'm thinking our catching up is looking a bit grim since it doesn't appear there are any particularly aggressive civs that could slow down the tech demons. I guess we'll have to get some caravels soon and see where we stand but this one may end up being a lost cause. I knew we'd be far behind but that freaking Cyrus seems to be leaving us in a major dust cloud. At this rate, he's bound to beat us to the UN and if we lose that, I'm thinking we might have trouble competing for the other spot as a candidate for Secretary General. JC is comparable in size to us and the others may have almost as much land area, depending on how tightly packed they are compared to our continents.

I'm willing to play it out a little further and see where it goes but I'm not expecting much at this point. Those dang barbs plus trying to grab land and secure our continent set us back a good deal. They have also had the advantage of tech trading from an earlier period until now, not to mention the bonuses due to the difficulty level. I think we could pull it out maybe if we were playing a normal game. The problem is we have to play nice in keeping with the variants, so we can't go declare on Cyrus and tear him up with some war elephants. It's not really playing nice to sic JC on him either. Assuming JC would oblige, it wouldn't amount to much, even if JC had the ability to send a decent invasion force, something the AI is notoriously bad at doing. So, unless the AI's get cramped or start some religious wars soon, I'm thinking we might be screwed. If our continent were fully developed and grown to a much larger population already, we might have a shot at catching up. As it stands, I think the game may be lost by the time we get strong. Call me a pessimist I guess.

Although...perhaps we could incite a war against us? That's probably not a very good thing for a pacifist to do either but maybe we could look at it as "demanding the sharing of knowledge for the good of all mankind". Cyrus of course refuses each and every time. If he gets annoyed enough, he declares on us and maybe we manage to get enough older units over to his land to give him some major fits. If we are lucky, a nearby rival sees an opportunity to jump on the bandwagon. We couldn't bring in any allies since that is against the rules but others might join in on their own to take him down a peg or two. That's probably a pipe dream and not exactly in keeping with the original intent but its something to consider I guess.
 
It's an interesting challenge but not as yet a lost cause. Colossus would help with our coastal cities; get another city near iron. Loads of cottages. Tech wise we'll be able to compete - beelining unpopular techs and multiple trades can be useful.
The big factor is whether we'll be left in peace to catch up. At least we don't have any full time psychos or fanatics to face. Diplomatic situation between three other civs is gonna be important.
Could have been worse: might have had Gandhi in the mix somewhere. But then we've only met four civs so far - others could be lurking or maybe wiped out by barbs or neighbours.
It's an uphill struggle to catch up but its too early to give up.
 
I agree with both of you. Playing against Washington alone is usually a big challenge when he's on the other continent. His traits' synergy is overpowered, and that's why they have changed them in the expansion, I think. With Cyrus and Mansa the things are just getting ridiculous... it's not even funny. This game would have been a major challenge even without our variant rules.

We can trade techs only with JC but it's hard to cut even a remotely fair deal with him on Monarch. Trading with the other civs is hard to imagine, because we are 10 techs behind.

I fail to see a way to win this game peacefully. And to add insult to injury, the other continent is clearly one big love parade, and at some point later in the game we can expect defensive pacts.
 
Pre-Turn
I took a look around but didn't see anything that seemed to need adjustment or change. I tried to see if JC would give up any techs out of the goodness of his heart but he didn't seem to want to share any knowledge.

Turn 1
Colossus is completed and a Harbor is started in Delhi.

Turn 2
Paper is discovered. One turn to Monotheism so I decided to just go ahead and knock it out.

Turn 3
Well for some reason it said one turn to Monotheism but it doesn't give it too us just yet. We meet Catherine. She's ahead of us too but I'm thinking she might be someone we could count on to give some of the others trouble.

Turn 4
Monotheism is discovered. JC wanted to trade for Paper. I declined at first and then went back to see what he had. Not a great deal but I managed to get Construction, Literature, and 150:gold: for Paper and Monotheism. I started to go for Machinery next but then decided to go for Drama instead since we could probably trade that to JC as well. Before continuing, I saw that Catherine didn't yet have Paper. I haggled with her a bit and managed to get Theology for Paper and 40:gold:

Turn 5
zzzzz

Turn 6
Drama is discovered. I start on Music.

Turn 7
Zhou completes a forge and starts on a harbor. Gao completes a Courthouse and starts on a Lighthouse.

Turn 8
Copernicus is born in Bombay. I considered using him to build an academy in Bombay but I decided to wait and consult the team first. He will give us some beakers towards Education but I think an academy is best, followed by super scientists later. I traded Theology and Drama to JC for Calendar, Horseback Riding, 10:gold:, and adoption of Hereditary Rule. I could have gotten Machinery but he wanted both techs plus almost two hundred gold and I really didn't want to give up our reserve treasury. We seem to be teching along better now and I think we can get ahead of JC eventually.

Turn 9
zzzzz

Turn 10
We meet Hatty. Same story, she is ahead of us too.


Well, after playing this round, things appear to be better than I thought. We are certainly behind but I think there might be a chance we could catch up sooner than I think. War is likely to break out sooner or later between Washington and the others. Depending on where Catherine is geographically compared to Washington, she may jump on him soon, slowing him down. Cyrus and or Mansa may join in, slowing their teching somewhat as pillaging takes place. Washington will take the brunt of it, while the others may get larger from taking American cities. Hopefully that will slow them down a bit initially from increased maintenance. JC hasn't been a very good trading partner. It would have been nice to have Mansa next door instead of JC. He seems to tend towards better deals than JC seems to want to give, especially considering the Pleased relationship. In hindsight, I think I might should have held off on handing him Theology until Music was finished and I could have traded it all maybe for a couple of better techs like Machinery and Philosophy. The way he's been going though, I'm not sure he would have traded both of those together without some kind of super deal on his end. Anyway, I'm thinking Machinery and Optics should probably come soon if we want to get caravels out and find our neighbors. Of course we could see about trading maps with Paper now. I never thought about seeing what I could get in that department. Sometimes you can pay a bit for a map from one or two AI's and then trade your total map to others for a slight profit or at least for their map on a cost free basis. We could do that for now I suppose.

Here's the updated roster:

Current Roster:
LuvToBuild -> fifth round completed
pigswill -> UP
Krockel -> autoskip
FoolontheHill -> on deck
omurtag -> fourth round completed
 
Got it. Had a quick look. I'll probably start a settler for iron city; irrigate a few tiles,cottage a few and it'll be a net bonus as well as making iron available; useful when we get to machinery for crossbows. Map trading sounds a good idea (I hope). See what we can trade for music. Hopefully a quiet turn set.

If we're going for a diplomatic victory then it's going to end up proper diplomacy rather than backdoor. Useful to work out the main power blocs, also useful to keep Juls happy. Defensive pact with Juls followed by PA may be the long term way to go.
Having looked at diplomacy screen a bit more Juls gets on ok with Cat, unfriendly (mutual) with MM,Hats,GW. We're unpopular with MM, Hats, GW. Cat and Cyrus are cautious with us. So trade with Cyrus and Cat as much as poss. Need to check out civix and religion stuff. See if we can get another buddhist (either Cyrus or Cat or both).

Edit. Checked Civics, Juls and Cyrus like representation, Cat likes HR.

I'll wait for advice/opinions and play tomorrow morning.
 
Unfortunately, PA's aren't enabled. I kind of wish I had enabled them now but at the time I felt like it gave us an advantage over the Jihadists that just didn't feel right. JC would have been a good candidate for a PA if we ever got him to Friendly. As it stands though, we can still use him to vote for us as long as he likes us better than the others. Getting one of the others like Cat or Cyrus on our side would be good too. I'm not sure if it's possible but Cat can be unpredictable so it seems like there might be a chance we could swing her to Buddhism and give her an excuse to declare on Cyrus or MM. She may already go after Washington before long. I know our intent isn't to try and get her to declare war but once she has our religion and converts, what she does is beyond our control, right? ;)

Yeah, I know I sound like a real Machiavellian but, unfortunately, I'm not sure we can win this without thinking in terms of breaking up the party across the pond. It was my original intent to be all noble and pure but that only works if you're a top dog and can afford to be noble and pure.


"LTB" whispers a sinister voice
"Ye..Yess?"
"I am your father. Come to the Dark Side my son"
"Ackkk!! It's Cosmichail! Save me!"
 
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