HOF Challenge Series II Discussion

[Denniz]

Welcome to the second running of the Civfanatics Hall of Fame Challenge Series.

This series is a collection of 6 games with a time limit of 4 months to complete them (from 10th May 2010 - 10th September 2010). The games are designed to (hopefully) be more defined than the usual gauntlet games and more challenging than a general Hall of Fame game, yet far from impossible to complete.

The winner will be the person who finishes all six games and collects the most points along the way (10 for 1st in each individual game, down to 1 for 10th).
NOTE: We are trying something new with this series. All games can be played at ANY difficulty. Initially, the best date will be ranked first regardless of difficulty. Once we have enough submissions for each game, we will to introduce adjustments to normalize the rankings for difficulty.

Progress results for all games can be found here.
There are individual threads for each game in the Challenge Series forum.

All of the games need to be played using version 3 of the BUFFY mod (BUFFY-3.19.003), found here. Standard Hall of Fame Rules apply to all games.

 

[cas]

Thanks for running this challenge.

Why the disdain for OCC ?

I know you have one OCC game (diplo). And the culture/dom would require PA...so I can understand why no OCC on those two. But why no option to use OCC on space/conquest/religious ?

cas

 

[playshogi]

4 months would be Sept 10, no?

 

[Fluroscent]

Large/Huge maps -> pass. Unfortunate, since the games look fun otherwise.

Looking forward to seeing if the Deity players will be able to complete the games

 

[Denniz]

4 months would be Sept 10, no?

Oops. At least I got it right on the setups.

 

[kcd_swede]

Agree on the Large/Huge problems... I think if I drop to so low a level I can sweep to victory early enough I could probably finish them without CTD, if that's what I need to do to finish the 6 games.

It is my understanding that I don't need to complete all games at the same difficulty level, but I do need to complete all games, in order to be counted in final standings. Correct?

How are you treating multiple submissions from the same player for a single game? Assume muliple games at the same difficulty level and/or at different difficulty levels. Will only the fastest finish (regardless of difficulty) show in the results?

I'm just trying to make sure I understand the rules, not trying to bring up issues.

Looks like another fun challenge!

 

[Denniz]

Thanks for running this challenge.

Why the disdain for OCC ?

I know you have one OCC game (diplo). And the culture/dom would require PA...so I can understand why no OCC on those two. But why no option to use OCC on space/conquest/religious ?

cas

Nothing against OCC. Just trying to close loopholes.

 

[AgedOne]

Interesting! The deal with the difficulty levels has given me something to consider.

One question, though. If I try one particular challenge at (say) Monarch level and get a win submitted, and then I feel I might get a result at Emperor level, and submit one of those as well, which one remains in the ranking tables under my name? Will it be the higher difficulty level, or will it be the best finish regardless of difficulty?
This (the second alternative) would obviously influence my choice of level.
It would be counter-productive to submit an attempt at a lower level if I could achieve a win at a higher, since the quickest finish would override my more difficult but probably slower finish.
Does that make sense?

 

[Denniz]

Interesting! The deal with the difficulty levels has given me something to consider.

One question, though. If I try one particular challenge at (say) Monarch level and get a win submitted, and then I feel I might get a result at Emperor level, and submit one of those as well, which one remains in the ranking tables under my name? Will it be the higher difficulty level, or will it be the best finish regardless of difficulty?
This (the second alternative) would obviously influence my choice of level.
It would be counter-productive to submit an attempt at a lower level if I could achieve a win at a higher, since the quickest finish would override my more difficult but probably slower finish.
Does that make sense?

Very good question! Putting this together I reallized that the best date will win out. There was no point in changing it without some kind of difficulty adjustment first.

 

[Ozbenno]

It is my understanding that I don't need to complete all games at the same difficulty level, but I do need to complete all games, in order to be counted in final standings. Correct?

Correct. You can complete them all on different levels if you like, just get them all done.

 

[AgedOne]

Very good question! Putting this together I reallized that the best date will win out. There was no point in changing it without some kind of difficulty adjustment first.

Thanks! I think I know what this means...I will have to curb my normal desire to submit as soon as I have a victory. I'll just hang on to that for a while and see if I can win at a higher level, before deciding which one to submit.

 

[thbrown81]

So just to clarify, we can submit completed games on different difficulty levels for the same Challenge game?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

NOTE: We are trying something new with this series. All games can be played at ANY difficulty. Initially, the best date will be ranked first regardless of difficulty. Once we have enough submissions for each game, we will to introduce adjustments to normalize the rankings for difficulty.

Thanks for allowing any Difficulty level.

Its especially great to see that you didn't limit Difficulty Level from Prince through Deity as prior discussion seemed to suggest. Now, Players can select Settler through Noble difficulty as well to suite their comfort, preferred competitive, or their personally most challenging Difficulty level.

I hope to see many Players competing at all Levels from Settler through Deity and learning from each other. The HOF Challenge Series II will be a great, with most Players understanding that learning from these competitions is far more important than one's personal Rank in the competition itself.

After G-Major-74 is over, I'll definitely try this Series at Deity level, starting with Game #5 (Large/Normal - Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory). I plan to follow this up with Deity entries for Game #2 (Small/Normal Cultural), Game #6 (Small/Epic Space Colony), Game #3 (Standard/Epic Diplomatic), Game #1 (Large/Epic Conquest) and finally the best for last Game #4 (Huge/Epic Domination).

Finally, I'm humbled that many, if not all, of my suggestions for the HOF Challenge Series II were accepted. (It helps that I have selective memory loss -- I don't remember anything about my suggestions that were rejected. ) Lots of interesting option and AI Leader combinations!

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

So just to clarify, we can submit completed games on different difficulty levels for the same Challenge game?

Yep, you can submit completed games on different levels for the same challenge.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I do worry about how you can normalize a BC's settler finish against a post 1500 or even post 1700 AD finish ----> the former is way, way easier than the latter. Winning by any time on deity should easily be worth more points than the earliest possible BCs settler finish for conquest-based games. In effect, I am virtually certain there will be a competitive bias that will maximize one's rankings by playing one difficulty over others for each game, such that given the same amount of skill, the same player would finish higher or lower based only on difficulty he selected.

I'm sure that isn't the intention of the series, but it is 100% unavoidable when allowing multiple difficulties, and glaring when extremes are permitted.

 

[kcd_swede]

I do worry about how you can normalize a BC's settler finish against a post 1500 or even post 1700 AD finish ----> the former is way, way easier than the latter. Winning by any time on deity should easily be worth more points than the earliest possible BCs settler finish for conquest-based games. In effect, I am virtually certain there will be a competitive bias that will maximize one's rankings by playing one difficulty over others for each game, such that given the same amount of skill, the same player would finish higher or lower based only on difficulty he selected.

I'm sure that isn't the intention of the series, but it is 100% unavoidable when allowing multiple difficulties, and glaring when extremes are permitted.

Maybe its going to be a new-age feel-good "competition" in that everyone gets a medal of some kind. I mean... waiting for the submissions before deciding how to score them kind of... makes it something less than a "World Championship of Civ 4" anyhow.

I suggest one take it as a personal challenge, rather than a cut-throat competition. Score scheme matters little to me, because in my eyes unless you play all the games at the highest level submitted victory for that game, you haven't demonstrated your skills are superior to the person who does that. But it can be arranged that you get a medal anyhow.

Actually I'm thinking about actually lowering my difficulty level for this Challenge in order to see if I can learn to optimize finish times better. At emperor level I'm challenged just to win a difficult game set-up, but if I drop to Monarch I have some luxury to experiment in trying to optimize finish dates. The best thing for me is that others will be playing the same set-ups and helping me improve my game (and that wouldn't really be expected in a cut-throat competition).

I'd like to get one of the games done in Deity, maybe the culture one, or the religious one. Other than that...

Should be fun, no matter what.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I suggest one take it as a personal challenge, rather than a cut-throat competition. Score scheme matters little to me, because in my eyes unless you play all the games at the highest level submitted victory for that game, you haven't demonstrated your skills are superior to the person who does that. But it can be arranged that you get a medal anyhow.

Actually I'm thinking about actually lowering my difficulty level for this Challenge in order to see if I can learn to optimize finish times better. At emperor level I'm challenged just to win a difficult game set-up, but if I drop to Monarch I have some luxury to experiment in trying to optimize finish dates. The best thing for me is that others will be playing the same set-ups and helping me improve my game (and that wouldn't really be expected in a cut-throat competition).

I could not have said it better ... Thanks kcd_swede!

I'm sure that many Players will have a favorite Victory Condition that they are particularly comfortable playing a Difficulty level or two higher than other Victory Conditions.

Alternatively, if a Game is too Difficult at one's initially choosen Difficulty level, this Challenge Series permits one to drop a level or two as needed to complete that Game.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

While somebody still discuss the rules Termitnik already won 2 games for this Series.

 

[kcd_swede]

^I've finished one game but haven't submitted it because I want to wait to see if I can do it at a higher level. It was good practise, though. Geez... who knew you only need 6 cities on a small map to make all the cathedrals in your legend cities?

 

[smitsk00]

Just to clarify. If I submit an Immortal game and a Settler game for the same challenge, will both games be adjusted for difficulty before my "best game" is determined? There is no doubt that the Settler game would be faster. I will not be limited to my fastest finish when scores are normalized?