HOF Challenge Series II Discussion

A curve represents a ramping up of difficulty. A bulge would be saying that the middle difficulties get increasingly difficult relative to the either end.

Just note (iResearchPercent from CIV4HandicapInfo.xml - one of the multipliers for calculating tech cost):
Settler 60
Chieftain 75
Warlord 90
Noble 100
Prince 110
Monarch 115
Emperor 120
Immortal 125
Deity 130

Of course research cost isn't the single factor for finish date, but it affects and it's bulge curve.
 
Just note (iResearchPercent from CIV4HandicapInfo.xml - one of the multipliers for calculating tech cost):
Settler 60
Chieftain 75
Warlord 90
Noble 100
Prince 110
Monarch 115
Emperor 120
Immortal 125
Deity 130

Of course research cost isn't the single factor for finish date, but it affects and it's bulge curve.
Remember that I have been graphing negative numbers. I don't if that changes the direction of the bulge.

I used the tech numbers and put those up against the curve I am currently using on the challenge page. see attached. I wouldn't have a problem with those as a curve. At least it has some basis in the game.
 

Attachments

  • Challenge_adj_2010-06-11.jpg
    Challenge_adj_2010-06-11.jpg
    51.2 KB · Views: 80
  • Challenge_curves_2010-06-11.jpg
    Challenge_curves_2010-06-11.jpg
    39.6 KB · Views: 57
Tech curve is much better then More Linear, but I don't understand what do you mean "tech numbers"?
 
Just note (iResearchPercent from CIV4HandicapInfo.xml - one of the multipliers for calculating tech cost):
Settler 60
Chieftain 75
Warlord 90
Noble 100
Prince 110
Monarch 115
Emperor 120
Immortal 125
Deity 130

Of course research cost isn't the single factor for finish date, but it affects and it's bulge curve.
I have made couple more tweaks to the adjustments. (This is the last time unless some really good data/arguement comes up.)

1) Changed the curve to use the research multipliers from the game.
2) Gave Game 5 an adjustment range. With best scores being Deity by Sun Tzu Wu and Misotu played on more optimal settings, I threw out their games and used the best Emperor vs. the best Settler. Not a big adjustment but it is the best I can do under the circumstances.

The attached pictures show:
1) The best Settler vs. the best High difficulty game which give us the points spread.
2) The adjustments by difficulty for each level. (i.e. point spread along the curve)
3) The old curve vs. the Tech curve
 

Attachments

  • Challenge_basis_2010-06-20.jpg
    Challenge_basis_2010-06-20.jpg
    17.2 KB · Views: 54
  • Challenge_adj_2010-06-20.jpg
    Challenge_adj_2010-06-20.jpg
    26.7 KB · Views: 64
  • Challenge_curves_2010-06-20.jpg
    Challenge_curves_2010-06-20.jpg
    39.5 KB · Views: 67
Well, let it be.
But it looks like game 6 (end some other) will be best on Settler. May be it's good, I like Settler. :)
 
I have made couple more tweaks to the adjustments. (This is the last time unless some really good data/arguement comes up.)

1) Changed the curve to use the research multipliers from the game.
2) Gave Game 5 an adjustment range. With best scores being Deity by Sun Tzu Wu and Misotu played on more optimal settings, I threw out their games and used the best Emperor vs. the best Settler. Not a big adjustment but it is the best I can do under the circumstances.

The attached pictures show:
1) The best Settler vs. the best High difficulty game which give us the points spread.
2) The adjustments by difficulty for each level. (i.e. point spread along the curve)
3) The old curve vs. the Tech curve

Is the huge Difficulty level difference (Settler versus Deity) in "resources" needed to deal with the Barbarian threat taken into account in these tables?

For Game #5, at Settler level, prior to turn 80 (Normal speed) there exist only Barbarian Animals that suffer a -70% Animal and -40% Barbarian adjustment that effectively makes the Lion (Str 2) virtually no real threat against a Scout (str 1) without Terrain or Fortify defense bonuses. I did not notice Barbarian Animals stronger than a Lion in my Settler Game. In a Settler Game, no fog busting is needed and thus no Warrior fog buster need be built.

By contrast, a Deity Game will have Barbarian Warriors and Archers as early as turn 10-15; later Barbarian Spearmen and Axemen These will quickly attempt to pillage improved Tiles. Fog busting is required and 2-3 Warriors must be built after a Worker for fog busting duty. Even with fog busting, it is difficult to cover all fog and Barbarians generate rather quickly, especially on a Flat Map like Great_Plains where it takes even Deity AI an exceeding long Time to settle the Land leaving less and less for Barbarian generation. The AI Civs are still not any where near the Player's Capital by around turn 100 or so (Normal speed). Without getting Horse or Copper in the BFC, it can be extremely difficult to prevent Barbarian units from pillaging most of the improved Tiles.

Thanks for the Difficulty adjustments for Game #5, but I must agree with Dynamic, that they probably still strongly favor Settler over Deity. If there is a basis toward a particular Difficulty level (for Game #5, Settler), Players will eventually see that and play that level. This is fine, assuming that Settler Games win all the top spots; the next Challenge series could be adjusted to account for the new data and eventually the Difficulty adjustments will be close enough to satisfy most Players.

When the Challenge series top results have a good mixture of Settler through Deity level Games, that would validate that the Difficulty level turn adjustments are correct (close enough).

Denniz, takes for your fantastic effort for Challenge Series II. It's turning into a Challenge where every one can participate and compete at the Game level they want (or think is most advantageous) and have a good shot at winning Challenge Series II, regardless of which Difficulty level they are comfortable/prefer playing.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I have read with interest the discussion on the "scoring adjustment" for position. It seems to me that there are so many factors that you can use to make one game on Settler (or any difficulty) more challenging (or less) than another. First and foremost is the starting position, followed by game options (other than those specified), then the number of opponents, etc...

It seems to me that if you win at Deity all the time, your win on Settler should be astonishing compared to someone who wins rarely if ever on Deity. Now I am sure that there is a lower limit that no matter how well you play, you'll never get a faster win than date "X". As I said above, this would vary slightly based on the factors listed above, but how much difference would there really be for any given level? This is what I feel that rankings would reflect given enough submissions. The higher you go in the difficulty level the more obvious the difference would be in the skill of players, as to win consistently at Deity, you need to have a complete grasp of all aspects of the game.

The most accurate way so far to judge one contestant against the next, is the GOTM series where everyone starts with the same position and options. Luck factors in, and you could only compare games for each different victory condition.

That said, I don't see any reason for a Deity player to not try and kick everyone's butt at the Settler level. There is no shame in playing Settler, unless you lose horribly to someone who can't win above Settler! I RESENT THAT, I HAVE WON AT CHIEFTAN ONCE! :blush:

I guess this is what the HOF series is for, every difficulty level, map size, and victory condition.
 
I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the Challenge II. Of course, I didn't get to play as many games as I wanted, nor did I place as well as I felt I could have, but I learned a great deal from the forums. As a teacher, I spend most of the summer traveling and sometimes moving to a new country. After my job fell through in Germany, I was able to play a few games while staying with friend and I worked my ass off to place as high as I did in Game 1. If only I had had more time to try the other games again and experiment with other difficulties, but I had two weddings this summer and other things going on. I was glad that my new place in the Czech Republic already had internet running when I moved in so I could play a few more.

Great job everyone, thanks a gain for the competition and education and see you in Challenge III. :goodjob:
 
Excellent Games shulec! Congratulations!

I enjoyed playing in Challenge II. I wanted to complete a Deity entry in each of the six competitions, but it is hard to Win Deity, especially with some of the settings.

I look forward to Challenge III with a similar scoring system and open difficulty levels.

Thanks for all your work Denniz!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
The second HOF Challenge has ended. There were 40 participants.

Players completing all 6 games:
shulec - 47.0 points
smitsk00 - 31.0 points
azylic - 25.5 points
Jack LEagle - 19.0 points
kcd_swede - 12.0 points
dcruze75 - 5.5 points
Sir Bugsy - 3.0 points
Gorrin - 3.0 points

Top 5 finishers:
shulec - 6 Games - 47.0 points
Kaitzilla - 5 Games - 38.5 points
smitsk00 - 6 Games - 31.0 points
azylic - 6 Games - 25.5 points
Termitnik - 3 Games - 25.0 points

#1 Finishes:
shulec - Game 5
Kaitzilla - Games 2,3,4
Termitnik - Game 1
Dynamic - Game 6

Full results >>> here <<<

Special mention to Kaitzilla for his Large Conquest (Game 1) that some said couldn't be done on Deity with those settings. :goodjob:

Discuss options with us for HOF Challenge III, which will be starting in near future. >>>here<<<.
 
Congratulations Kaitzilla!

I declare you the winner of this competition. Your best finish in Game 1 puts you in 1st place outright, as well as it is the best played game in the Challenge. Thanks to everyone submitting games and contributing to the discussions.
 
Grats to Shulec for getting number 1 spot, 47 points out of 60 is very impressive!




I tried to get all six games in, but I blew it on #5.

Spoiler :



Theocracy turned away my missionaries, and Charlemagne won the Palace seat when the vote came up. Definitely need to work on that kind of victory, I usually never attempt it.


Mad props to Denniz for making this happen. :goodjob:
 
Last edited:
TAP Theocracy tip:

Theocracy turned away my missionaries, and Charlemagne won the Palace seat when the vote came up. Definitely need to work on that kind of victory, I usually never attempt it.

When a Civ is running Theocracy, you have no option except to give your TAP Religion Missionary to that Civ. You lose control of which City he converts, but at least you are usually able to convert one of his Cities (usually the most Populous) in this manner.

Congratulations Kaitzilla!

Kaitzilla, you did extremely well in four out of five Games and in the fifth, you probably should have received close to the top (if not the top) for Game #1. Congratulations on five Games fabulously well played!

Sun Tzu Wu
 
TAP Theocracy tip:

When a Civ is running Theocracy, you have no option except to give your TAP Religion Missionary to that Civ. You lose control of which City he converts, but at least you are usually able to convert one of his Cities (usually the most Populous) in this manner.
you can also settle a miserable city close to his land, bring a missionary in it (100% for the first religion in your land!) then gift him the stupid thing that will never grow + he will like you for liberating his city ;)

the cost is high (a settler + a missionary!) but it's almost fail proof
 
Top Bottom