HoF Mod: benefits/effects and impacts

[Methos]

I decided to expan our question so I have posted a thread in the Mac Forums asking about playing Windows saves on a Mac computer. You can find it at the link below:

Playing a Windows save on a Mac

I wouldn't push for a mod that prevented players from participating to the extent they wanted to.

I agree. If we learn that Mac players can load and play an unmodded Windows save I would push we play an unmodded game if someone were to repoll this.

 

[DaveShack]

The result of the current poll would be for not using the mod.

 

[ori]

Well, I downloaded

RB27 - Barbarian Tokugawa AD-1535.Civ4SavedGame

and it played fine. Thing is I don't know what it was saved in - Windows is the obvious first guess, so maybe a Windows user could download it and be sure it runs there too. But we do look good as far as vanilla civ4 being cross-platform.

runs fine - since it seems to be clear that the HOF-Mod would preclude Mac players from participating I also strongly support leaving decisions on this as they are and go ahead without the Mod.

 

[donsig]

The result of the current poll would be for not using the mod.

No, DaveShack. The result of the current poll is that the majority has not decided the issue, since there was no majority vote for either option. Yes, I'm counting abstain votes and if you or anyone else want to argue that abstain should not be counted then I'd say the poll was unfair because it did not include an other option and was polled too quickly. The reality of it is that further discussion in this thread has been such that some of us who voted yes might have voted no thereby resulting in an actual majority decision.

Now before you jump down my throat I realize that a non-decision in this case really means a decision not to use the mod, but there is an important distinction between a decision and a non-decision and this will become even more important as the game goes on and we encounter issues we are split on as a group.

 

[dutchfire]

because it did not include an other option

We could use the mod, or we could not use the mod, there's no alternative.

was polled too quickly.

At the time I started the poll, there had been about 3 days of discussion here and more in another thread. The first day of this thread, some people asked some questions, and they were answered, then there was no discussion for a day, then there was 1 question asked, and it was answered completely. At that moment, it looked to me like everything had been discussed, and 4 days later someone brought up the issue about Mac. At the time the poll was posted it looked like all discussion was over. Therefor I think me posting that poll at that moment was totally justified.

 

[DaveShack]

You're just going to have to accept that it is a decision, majority or not. The poll is closed, and No wins. This is not my opinion, it is the people's opinion, everyone but you. Either prove I'm wrong, or drop the issue.

 

[donsig]

You're just going to have to accept that it is a decision, majority or not. The poll is closed, and No wins. This is not my opinion, it is the people's opinion, everyone but you. Either prove I'm wrong, or drop the issue.

You know as well as I do DaveShack that there is nothing I can say that will prove to YOU that the poll was unfair. You see the world the way you see it and refuse to see other people's point of view.

Yes, only two sensible options existed, use the mod or not. Yes, it looked like it was an appropriate time to poll according to the actual duscussion up to that time. BUT, and this is a big BUT, subsequent information was revealed that would have altered the outcome of the vote. (If we repoll the thing now I bet there would be an overwhelming - and majority - vote against using the mod). Add to this the fact that this is a decison that need not have been made for two more weeks. There was no compelling reason to rush to a poll here. Giving it a little bit of time would have prevented alot of bickering and allowed us to come to a happy consensus..

And I'm NOT going to drop the issue. I've been talking about majority decisons for quite awhile now and when the game actually starts it will be very important for us to know what actually constitutes a decision. We can discuss this issue constructively now or we can bicker, argue and fight about it after the game starts. Is that what you want to do? I'd be more than happy to press the issue later if you don't want to decide it now.

 

[Falcon02]

I think what this really calls for is an inititive to DEFINE the use majority, DEFINE when simple greatest number of votes is the victor, DEFINE the role of abstain, and DEFINE a poll maker's rights (or lack there of) to announce at the start of the poll how the results will be interpreted.

Donsig, if these were defined in writing and approved with a >50% majority would that satisfy you?

 

[DaveShack]

I think what this really calls for is an inititive to DEFINE the use majority, DEFINE when simple greatest number of votes is the victor, DEFINE the role of abstain, and DEFINE a poll maker's rights (or lack there of) to announce at the start of the poll how the results will be interpreted.

Donsig, if these were defined in writing and approved with a >50% majority would that satisfy you?

There is a thread for this initiative you speak of. We can just poll that initiative.

 

[DaveShack]

And I'm NOT going to drop the issue. I've been talking about majority decisons for quite awhile now and when the game actually starts it will be very important for us to know what actually constitutes a decision. We can discuss this issue constructively now or we can bicker, argue and fight about it after the game starts. Is that what you want to do? I'd be more than happy to press the issue later if you don't want to decide it now.

You're welcome to try to convince people your view of majority decisions is the best one, but this issue on HoF mod has been decided.

 

[Methos]

(If we repoll the thing now I bet there would be an overwhelming - and majority - vote against using the mod).

, but this issue on HoF mod has been decided.

Okay, just to clarify, both of you appear to agree that the HoF Mod is out, even though neither of you seem to say you agree with the other.

I believe this subject needs to be taken to a different thread, as its confusing the issue since it is still taking place in the HoF Mod thread.

 

[Falcon02]

There is a thread for this initiative you speak of. We can just poll that initiative.

I assume you are refering to Ravensfire's post in the "What should we do to ensure polling is fair?" thread?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5094837&postcount=39

Didn't see that before... the actual practical proposal kinda got lost in the arguing, and I missed it....

Ravensfire seems opposed to putting a section on Abstain in there though, due to the conflicting opinions of whether it should be used at all.

 

[DaveShack]

Well, I read donsig's replies as saying he's going to repoll it, even though we've already made the right decision, because we made the right decision the wrong way. To which my response is knock yourself out, just don't knock us out doing it.

Is that a lock request? I haven't locked any threads yet. Or warned anyone for threadjacking, perhaps that would be the right approach.

But really, to be on topic here, the mod has plenty of benefits. It would be a goodness if it were possible to use it. However we have set a precedent with the Vanilla vs Warlords vote that we don't want to unnecessarily exclude anyone. I honestly think the subject is done, both at the discussion level and with a clear decision from the poll no matter how you score it.

 

[Methos]

I'll link this statement made by Superslug in the HoF Forums, and quote it here:

I didn't realize that Mac players couldn't submit. Does it have something to do in the difference of the saves?

It's more due to the differences in the Windows/Mac Operating Systems. Cross-platform compatibility is pretty much impossible for the mod.

I'm pretty sure we're just

, but thought the above might benefit the discussion.

 

[Methos]

Sorry again, but one final link:

could you link to the Mac versions of the HOF-Mod on the HOF page (I had to do quite some searching since I don't play the GOTMs (yet) - so if you don't look at the active GOTM/WOTM you won't find them) and there were some people asking for it in the DG threads...

The Mac versions of the HoF Mod are linked in the Mac Civ4 forum and in the GOTM forums. They are only of use for Mac players in the GOTMs, or for Mac players wanting a standalone mod for their own Mac-only games. There is no point in linking them from the HoF pages as they do not conform with the requirements for HoF use, and they cannot be used for any other cross-platform activities such as the Demo game.

It's more due to the differences in the Windows/Mac Operating Systems. Cross-platform compatibility is pretty much impossible for the mod.

Not really. The problem is that there is a custom DLL included in the mod, compiled with the Civ4 SDK. However, the Mac version of Civ4 is not currently written to handle custom DLLs. This is NOT an OS issue, and Firaxis and Aspyr COULD create a similar SDK to allow is to port and compile the mod for the Mac version of Civ4, but they haven't. If they did then I would be very happy to build a fully-compliant Mac version of the mod.

 

[donsig]

I think what this really calls for is an inititive to DEFINE the use majority, DEFINE when simple greatest number of votes is the victor, DEFINE the role of abstain, and DEFINE a poll maker's rights (or lack there of) to announce at the start of the poll how the results will be interpreted.

Donsig, if these were defined in writing and approved with a >50% majority would that satisfy you?

I dunno. Why does it have to be accepted by a 50% majority when those opposed to the majority idea are willing to accept pluralities for other decisions? But, yes General, I would be much happier if we discussed and polled the idea of using majorities only. I took a couple days away from the DG hoping to come back and write up an initiative but I just have not had time.

@DaveShack: If you've been following the discussion here and in the poll you know that we learned (after I said I would repoll this) that Mac users won't be able to look at the save if we use the HoF mod but can look at it if we don't use the mod. When we learned that I said I would not push for something that would prevent anyone from participating as much as they wanted to. I would only repoll something I wanted to pass. Since I would not even vote for the mod now I will not repoll it.

I do stand by what I said earlier. The poll resulted in a non-decision. The poll was also premature. We had well over two weeks to make the decision and a little discussion and research brought about a consensus. As you pointed out this is an instance where a majority would need to vote for using the mod for it to be used that hasn't happend so despite the non-decision of the first poll, the default decision is to not use it.

Is there still a problem here? If not I suggest we follow up on the General's suggestion to discuss and poll majority versus plurality decisions in polls.

 

[DaveShack]

@DaveShack: If you've been following the discussion here and in the poll you know that we learned (after I said I would repoll this) that Mac users won't be able to look at the save if we use the HoF mod but can look at it if we don't use the mod. When we learned that I said I would not push for something that would prevent anyone from participating as much as they wanted to. I would only repoll something I wanted to pass. Since I would not even vote for the mod now I will not repoll it.

Of course I've been following it, in both places. I'm much more comfortable with this clarification on your current position. Like you, usually I won't go out of my way to repoll when I agree with the 1st poll's outcome.

 

[Methos]

One more last reassurance is this post made in the Playing a Windows save on Mac thread I posted above.

Just to reassure you, Methos, I am involved with a PBEM involving a coworker. I play on a MacBook, he on his PC. Whenever I'm at his office, I'll play a couple turns. Later that night, I'll play the next turns on my MacBook. There has never been a problem crossing from one platform to the other. We are playing Vanilla 1.61

As much as I like the HoF Mod, I cannot see using it if it doesn't allow everyone to participate. Luckily, it looks like no one plans to repoll it.