HOF Questions and Answers Thread

[ParadigmShifter]

You don't need map size for QM or EQM.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the following would actually net you EQM status:

1. Win every victory and with every civ on tiny maps exclusively. Use each map type eligible for HoF once. After doing this, run starting eras again on tiny exclusively. Use each different speed at least once too, probably quick for culture and whatnot.
2. Win major/minor gauntlets to clear that requirement.
3. Win one of each map size, regardless of victory method or map type.

Different map sizes are not needed ... by playing all leaders, you can easily cover all maps, all victory conditions and the 4 speeds, as well as some gauntlet. You then 'only' need another 6 games for 'Rock of Ages', and you've got your EQM status.

 

[Denniz]

I don't wanna start a war, but if needed...
I want publicly discuss this for 2 reasons:
a) i'm absolutely sure i played that map accordingly with the HoF rules
b) given the point above, and the fact that you are making a mistake, in the interest of the staff/members relations and of the clarity of your procedure, it's better to know what tells you i replay that map, since i didn't.

on topic, let's see what i did:
1) start a custom game, choose map, opponents, etc.
2) saved first map
3) regenerate some dozen maps, saved some 10-12. this is a1, so it's probably the first good start point saved
4) stop the generation process, re-open some maps and choose which can be better (just looking at it)
5) in this game i remember i made an attempt i abandoned after 15 turns or so, but with another map
6) decided to play this one, 2 sessions since it was late night
7) after saved the victory, re-opened some map until i found the correct one (i use the autolog to identify the start map, but i called it a6 instead of a1)
8) submitted, and unfortunately, deleted all the remaining maps: i don't like games not starting in ancient age.

Now, i wanna know *exactly* where do you found a sign i replay this map.
Sure i loaded the start 2 or 3 times before actually play and once after victory, but *never* made a single move or else, just look at it.
Never crashed in game.

eagerly awaiting an exhaustive and public answer.

For the record, we are NOT going to reveal anything publicly or privately that might compromise the vetting process. I doubt that we are would be able to satisfy you even if we were willing to share that kind of information.

Is it possible that there is a bug? Sure, anything is possible, but I am not sure how likely it is. The code in question has been around a long time and we don't get a lot of things like this. We can go back and try a few likely scenarios and see if we can reproduce a similar result.

If we aren't able to reproduce it would that change your opinion? Is it possible you made a mistake saving or opening your starting saves? I know you say you didn't but if you made such a mistake it is not like you would realize it? An interesting thing to note along those lines: if you look at the player log there is a message saying "a5" not "a6" or "a1". I am not sure what to make of that.

It would have been alot easier if you could have gone back an checked your other saves. In the future, I think it might be a good idea to hold on to all your saves until after your submission is accepted.

 

[Denniz]

I might be wrong, but wouldn't that violate the two rules of
1. performing a manual save at the end of each session
2. playing at least 1 hour per session?

(1.) could generate the same fingerprint as actually replaying some moves.

Which leads me to a related question: Is it okay to let mapfinder save a number of starts, then quit civ and load any of these saves? If you read it literally, this would violate the second rule mentioned above.

What you did after victory doesn't matter since the HoF mod doesn't alter or overwrite your actual victory savegame.

The sessions time limit is more of a guideline these days than a hard and fast rule. Although, at times it seems like we should bring it back as the number of really short sessions (<10 minutes) is becoming a concern.

Map Finder is designed to let you do just what you describe, so it would hardly be fair to penalize you for it.

Off topic for a moment and probably a stupid question, but ...

Is it valid for me to install and use graphic mods and still submit a valid HOF entry?

Graphics mods are fine as long as they do not alter game play. It is always a good idea to backup the original files (somewhere outside of the civ4 path) before installing a mod. If you get a warning message about assets not matching, you should probably back out that mod.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...) An interesting thing to note along those lines: if you look at the player log there is a message saying "a5" not "a6" or "a1". I am not sure what to make of that.

It would have been alot easier if you could have gone back an checked your other saves. In the future, I think it might be a good idea to hold on to all your saves until after your submission is accepted.

You're right about the saves, i'll keep until the game will be accepted, from now on.

I've seen the attachment, it says: industrial Eli a5, i didn't changed the autolog to the actual game, but this was referring to a previous attempt with Elizabeth... redcoats, you know.

But this does not explain where i can have made a mistake in loading/reloading, if any. How are my other saves related to the game? they were only start saves, i do not save when i abandon a game. If i follow my "procedure" i delete the start save to be sure to not play it again.
I clearly remember that in my only abandoned game with Gandhi Rome was on a SW hill and France was north of me... pity i loose 3 rifles against only one, the map was far better.

My game remains excluded and i'm sure i do not reload. Again, you are wrong and i do not know where is the point you see a reload: the very beginning? which moves have i replayed? all the game?
Or what you see is the start loaded many times? This can be the only right explanation.

Is it correct that i can load a save - start or intermediate - many times i like if i do not make any irreversible move?

It's not a problem to re-create an industrial start and play a boring game, it's a question that since i'm sure i did NOT made mistakes, there's an error somewhere, and we must find it.

I'm sorry for this, but i think it's in the interest of the community.

edit:
i opened the final save, and the in-game log says - correctly - that Dehli and the other 2 cities were founded in 1272, not in 1270. I remember i loose 1 turn to better position my cities. There's something wrong.
Would you like, please send me the files i submitted to compare them with mine?

 

[Denniz]

Note: the is no danger of us mistaking the opening of the initial save multiple times for a reload. With map finder and manual regenerations we see that all the time. Also, people open the wrong save all the time. As long as they don't replay any moves we disregard those.

 

[BLubmuz]

Denniz, i received and verified the files i submitted.
They are coherent, and Dehli was founded together to the 2 initial cities in 1272.
The log you posted is not of this game, only the first row is coherent with the in-game log.

But the problem remains: i'm absolutely sure i didn't made mistakes (reloading and so on) and you say i reload.

We can't go out of this if do not investigate deeply in the files.

 

[Denniz]

Denniz, i received and verified the files i submitted.
They are coherent, and Dehli was founded together to the 2 initial cities in 1272.
The log you posted is not of this game, only the first row is coherent with the in-game log.

But the problem remains: i'm absolutely sure i didn't made mistakes (reloading and so on) and you say i reload.

We can't go out of this if do not investigate deeply in the files.

I am not sure what you mean by the game not matching. Remember the game info page has two logs (General and Player). I have attach a bigger screen print of the player log. I believe the player log is the combat log. Are sure you cannot see your exluded game under "My Submissions"? I will un-exclude it temporarily so you to look at it yourself, if you cannot.

Everything we have points to you playing the map a little ways and then starting it over. You think that is not the case. Fine, let's agree to disagree. We have re-checked every thing we can. All we can do now is try to reproduce some kind of bug that would explain the situation. If we find something we'll fix it and release new versions. If we don't we don't. There is no need to keep

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, i successfully submitted another industrial start, better than before... man, Lizzy is powerful!

The new screenie you posted is coherent with the in-game log, maybe i was duped 'cause i cant see the 1272 in the previous one.

OK, let's stop this, but please, verify accurately i'm still sure of my points.

Can you tell me from, or until which point you see a replay?

 

[Denniz]

OK, i successfully submitted another industrial start, better than before... man, Lizzy is powerful!

The new screenie you posted is coherent with the in-game log, maybe i was duped 'cause i cant see the 1272 in the previous one.

OK, let's stop this, but please, verify accurately i'm still sure of my points.

Can you tell me from, or until which point you see a replay?

"Played the same map more than once" means the replay was from the beginning like someone played part of a game and then started over from the beginning with the same map.

As I said, we will try to reproduce your situation. In the meantime, if you are concerned about a bug, then make sure you restart Civ4 between games. That should reduce/eliminate whatever chance that there is of a bug.

 

[Salomo]

That discussion above reminded me of two questions i had recently:

1.
I usually run map finder and observe it manually, sometimes moving the initial units in the time between maps are regenerated to get a better glimpse of whether to stop mapfinder. However, i often save them before moving any pieces (and i guess mapfinder does too, right?)

If i want to get back to those maps saved - maps where i already moved the initial units, but did not finish the first round - would that lead to the game being disqualified?

I guess on one hand that could be abused by making the 3 moves in the first turn differently. On the other hand it would suck not being able to get back to some of those starting locations saved just because i moved units after saving in the first turn.


2.
How important is that autolog thing (the thing that logs stuff to a txt file)? That function came with the HoF mod so i used it, but it's not required for anything in the HoF, right?

Reason i'm asking that my logs are getting quite a mess, especially when i make many different runs at getting a good start for a Gauntlet/HoF attempt, look for good maps, etc. On the current gauntlet i now have 21 text files for hundreds of maps generated and regenerated and quite a few attempts halfway played, given up, and occasionally picked up again. I'm thinking of getting entirely rid of that autolog thingy if it's not needed for anything here.

 

[Denniz]

That discussion above reminded me of two questions i had recently:

1.
I usually run map finder and observe it manually, sometimes moving the initial units in the time between maps are regenerated to get a better glimpse of whether to stop mapfinder. However, i often save them before moving any pieces (and i guess mapfinder does too, right?)

If i want to get back to those maps saved - maps where i already moved the initial units, but did not finish the first round - would that lead to the game being disqualified?

I guess on one hand that could be abused by making the 3 moves in the first turn differently. On the other hand it would suck not being able to get back to some of those starting locations saved just because i moved units after saving in the first turn.

That's dangerous. I don't know at what point map finder would save relative to your moves but I wouldn't use Map finder's saves unless you don't move units.

2.
How important is that autolog thing (the thing that logs stuff to a txt file)? That function came with the HoF mod so i used it, but it's not required for anything in the HoF, right?

Reason i'm asking that my logs are getting quite a mess, especially when i make many different runs at getting a good start for a Gauntlet/HoF attempt, look for good maps, etc. On the current gauntlet i now have 21 text files for hundreds of maps generated and regenerated and quite a few attempts halfway played, given up, and occasionally picked up again. I'm thinking of getting entirely rid of that autolog thingy if it's not needed for anything here.

Autolog is optional. All those optional things default to turned off. They are there for folks who find them useful.

 

[berserks01]

"Played the same map more than once" means the replay was from the beginning like someone played part of a game and then started over from the beginning with the same map.

Well .... I recently had a rejected game that I'm sure I did not replay. However, there were a couple of times during the game where I only managed to play 1 turn before having to save it to continue later. It was not intentional since I sat down with the intent to spend an hour or 2 at it, but something pops up that required me to leave and stop playing. I figured that this is what caused it to be rejected, so I just left it as is.

:shrug: It was an easy game anyway, I'm only trying to get Noble EQM.

 

[Methos]

However, there were a couple of times during the game where I only managed to play 1 turn before having to save it to continue later. It was not intentional since I sat down with the intent to spend an hour or 2 at it, but something pops up that required me to leave and stop playing. I figured that this is what caused it to be rejected, so I just left it as is.

So long as you save at the point you exit the game and resume playing from that save, you should be just fine. Granted, we prefer you to play longer sessions, but that is not required according to the current rules.

 

[Salomo]

That's dangerous. I don't know at what point map finder would save relative to your moves but I wouldn't use Map finder's saves unless you don't move units.

So if i use a save where i

1) saved
2) moved my settler
3) regenerated map
4) loaded my previous save, and
5) moved my settler again + built city

it will always result in the game not being accepted?

Cause to me that seems like a pretty drastic consequence for a rather minor thing.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Does it really? Moving units then reloading to move them a second time can make a difference. It may seem minor, but it's also early. Knowledge of those tiles can be the kind of advantage that gives an extra 1000+ points or several turn earlier finish date. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and that somewhere is replaying ANY turns from what I understand. The reason for this is pretty clear IMO, especially as I can think ways to abuse this otherwise .

 

[Methos]

So if i use a save where i

1) saved
2) moved my settler
3) regenerated map
4) loaded my previous save, and
5) moved my settler again + built city

it will always result in the game not being accepted?

Correct, it will result in the game being rejected due to reloading. As has already been stated by TheMeInTeam, it can easily be abused and we do not consider it a minor thing, no matter how simple the move.

 

[BLubmuz]

"Played the same map more than once" means the replay was from the beginning like someone played part of a game and then started over from the beginning with the same map.

As I said, we will try to reproduce your situation. In the meantime, if you are concerned about a bug, then make sure you restart Civ4 between games. That should reduce/eliminate whatever chance that there is of a bug.

Alright, last shot on this (promise): i'm abslutely sure i didn't, nor by mistake (i can't see how, given the method i use in regenerating and play), surely not intentionally: as you know those games were only for Monarch RoA, i didn't care to submit an exceptional game, just decent, or less.

If you see something on he first turn i can have made some mistake, but surely not in other way.

This thing is really strange, really.

 

[Salomo]

Mmmk, perhaps i simply lack the fantasy to imagine how this can be seriously abused. The worst i can imagine is that someone moves his units as far in every direction as he can in the initial turn to expand the visble size a bit and pick the best starting position within it. Sure, that gives an advantage... but probably no bigger one than letting mapfinder run for hours.

Ah well, it's no biggie, i guess i'll just need to make sure to save after making the move instead of in the beginning.

 

[unclethrill]

Does it really? Moving units then reloading to move them a second time can make a difference. It may seem minor, but it's also early. Knowledge of those tiles can be the kind of advantage that gives an extra 1000+ points or several turn earlier finish date. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and that somewhere is replaying ANY turns from what I understand. The reason for this is pretty clear IMO, especially as I can think ways to abuse this otherwise .

I agree with TMIT. Yes the initial move may not seem like much but with hills around, strategic moving of the initial units can reveal a good bit of the map. This can lead to a better placement for the initial city and in the best case this can shave off several turns. For the best players, (not me) this can be the different from first place and fifth place. I personally don't mind fifth place but i would guess that WastinTime, Ryrax, HHG etc would be partial to any work-around that helps save a couple turns at any point in the game.