Hoping for a Mac version right out of the box!

[EmpireOfCats]

What fictitious land are you living in where the only people who play PC games are under the age of 18?

Never said that. I said, "a lot of gamers". Though I sometimes get the feeling that all the kids are out planting virtual potatoes in FarmVille while it's us old farts playing the complicated games like Civ ...

Nobody is sitting at home wanting to play games on their Mac, just waiting for people to release a Mac client for things. Nobody. They're playing games some other way or they're not interested in the first place.

Yes, we're current playing PC games on our Macs with Bootcamp. We discussed this in detail.

It's because you have absolutely no grip on reality.

Well, then I'm sure you know best, and Valve, Blizzard and Telltale are just a bunch of idiots who don't know what they are doing and are sure to crash and burn soon. I'll leave you with a quote from a blog that talks about Steam and how that helps Valve sell stuff for Macs, too:

What Steam proves is that to succeed on the internet, you really need to be familiar with your customers and understand their needs and truly deliver superior experience and added value to them. This is nothing new, but somehow the rest of the entertainment industry seems to think that they can still get away with last century tactics.​

For Firaxis, "understanding their needs" and "added value" includes a Mac port out of the box. Either that, or I hope that Civ V will run like mad in VirtualBox -- I haven't bothered with Bootcamp on the new machine, it's just not worth it for one single game, even if it is Civ.

 

[Chalks]

Yes, we're current playing PC games on our Macs with Bootcamp. We discussed this in detail.

And therefore there is no reason for game developers to consider you as an untapped market when you are already buying their games. It's not complex - there is no incentive to release a Mac client when you're already buying the PC version!

Well, then I'm sure you know best, and Valve, Blizzard and Telltale

Telltale? Seriously? Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel. A bunch of episodic point and clicks and remakes of monkey island? Don't get me wrong, I've bought the first 2 seasons of sam & max on steam and they were great. Not exactly the pinnacle of my gaming career though.

It has taken Valve SEVEN YEARS to port their platform to Mac - it's obviously not a high priority for them. It's not like it takes seven years of development work to port something to Macs. It's the definition of "on the back burner".

And Blizzard! Ah Blizzard. Pretty much the only significant games studio targeting the Mac platform for simultaneous release. And oh, what's this? Still clinging to the coat tails of the PC.

I'm amazed you've not gone and listed the EA casual games that target Macs. At least they can argue that they've got a significant target market: non gamers who like shiny things.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

It has taken Valve SEVEN YEARS to port their platform to Mac - it's obviously not a high priority for them.

Of course it is not a high priority. Valve's highest priority these days is the casual gamer console crowd (XBox, to be exact), which you can see very clearly in the changes they made going from L4D1 to L4D2 (huge weapons, the HUD in bright colors, dumbed-down enemies, silly clowns, a shoot-em-up instead of a horror-survival game). That's were they big money is these days (and in virtual potatoes, I guess).

Nobody said it was a high priority. But they are doing it, which is the important part, and they are going to make a profit this way. How do they make that profit? By using modern technology (my emphasis):

“Checking in code produces a PC build and Mac build at the same time, automatically, so the two platforms are perfectly in lock-step,” said Josh Weier, said Portal 2 project lead in the press release. “We’re always playing a native version on the Mac right alongside the PC."​

Welcome to the 21. century, ladies and gentlemen (I assume the Xbox version is created automatically as well). So they did their homework, and now they are going to make good (though certainly not spectacular) money with little effort. Oh, and they are making customers happy. Everybody wins.

Except, of course, the competition, which in this case unfortunately seems to be Firaxis. Who probably never gave an OS X version serious thought back when they started Civ V years and years ago and now don't have the right sort of tools in place. Let's hope they are good at playing catch-up.

As to when Valve started development, that is more Apple's fault than Valve's. Valve would have been insane to start earlier. The PowerPC Macs were crap -- I had an iBook G4 as my first Mac, and as nice as OS X was back then, too, the hardware was a mess. IBM never got their act together. Mac sales have only been taking off in the last few years (remember the chart I posted here?).

Which is why there are still all of those stupid rumors going around.

 

[Chalks]

Except, of course, the competition, which in this case unfortunately seems to be Firaxis. Who probably never gave an OS X version serious thought back when they started Civ V years and years ago and now don't have the right sort of tools in place. Let's hope they are good at playing catch-up.

How is Portal 2 "competition" to Civ 5?

All those people who love TBS games are going to buy Portal 2 now because it's Mac native?

You live in a fantasy land.

Those who own a Mac and want to play the game will do so though bootcamp or what ever.

Everyone else owns a PC.

The difference in sales between a simultaneous Mac release and a delayed one is going to be insignificant. If you want to play the game, you're going to buy the PC version.

The decision will have no appreciable effect what so ever. Like 2 guys will not buy the game on principal because they've been downing too much kool-aid. That's basically the extent of it.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

How is Portal 2 "competition" to Civ 5?

Sorry, that might not have been clear enough. Valve is in competition with Firaxis, of course.

As for the rest of the discussion, maybe we should just wait a bit and see what happens. Me, I'm off to The Passing for a while.

 

[Chalks]

Sorry, that might not have been clear enough. Valve is in competition with Firaxis, of course.

As for the rest of the discussion, maybe we should just wait a bit and see what happens. Me, I'm off to The Passing for a while.

How is valve competition for Firaxis?

The number of people buying Portal 2 is not going to eat into the number of people buying Civilization 5.

If they're not competing over sales, what is it that they're competing over? Pixels?

We know that there isn't going to be a simultaneous Mac and PC release. So I don't think we need to wait and see what happens, we already know the score. And it is an entirely reasonable decision that will have a negligible effect on sales.

 

[civ_king]

What on earth are you talking about? Most people buy PCs for use at home. Most people who play games on *not a console* play them on PCs.

What fictitious land are you living in where the only people who play PC games are under the age of 18?

Are you saying that everyone else is playing games on Macs? Really? What an interesting statistic you have there. Would you mind citing your sources on that? Or any logical reason to think it is true?

The percentage of people who own a Mac is small. The percentage of people who own ONLY a Mac is even smaller. The percentage of people who own only a Mac and want to play games is even smaller still. The percentage of people who own only a Mac, want to play games but can't work out how to dual boot or run WINE is utterly insignificant. And of that insignificant number of people, most of them will go buy a PC to resolve their problem.

Nobody is sitting at home wanting to play games on their Mac, just waiting for people to release a Mac client for things. Nobody. They're playing games some other way or they're not interested in the first place.

Do you know why you're sitting there going "I don't understand why nobody releases Mac clients for games out of the box"?

It's because you have absolutely no grip on reality.

1) IIRC people who have Macs are more likely to play video games,
2) Past late 30s people are raising families and in this economy everything gets lots of cuts so smart people choose the one that may be 50% more but it has 20% more powerful processor, last them 100% longer in both usability and battery life!
3) It isn't that they don't know how to boot camp, it is that they find that Windows sucks and they don't want to use it
4) Wine doesn't solve everything
5) PCs still run Windows...
6) Yes, there are massive communities (surprise!) dedicated for hacking Windows games to work on the Macintosh, guess what? those companies lose that otherwise easy to capture money (I have a copy of Oblivion on my Mac and it runs great! BTW I own three copies of the game)
7) We aren't wondering why they don't release, it is more major companies are releasing; remember epic Mac fanboiz? well they love it when companies release for Mac and snap up copies fast

PS Mac sales are low because of how long they last

 

[Chalks]

1) IIRC people who have Macs are more likely to play video games,

[Citation needed]

2) Past late 30s people are raising families and in this economy everything gets lots of cuts so smart people choose the one that may be 50% more but it has 20% more powerful processor, last them 100% longer in both usability and battery life!

[Citation needed]. Also, battery life? What?

3) It isn't that they don't know how to boot camp, it is that they find that Windows sucks and they don't want to use it

But they will, thus negating the need to port to Macs natively from day 1. Is this point really that difficult to understand?

4) Wine doesn't solve everything

See the above.

5) PCs still run Windows...

Why don't you say it a 4th time, then it'll some how morph into a point.

6) Yes, there are massive communities (surprise!) dedicated for hacking Windows games to work on the Macintosh, guess what? those companies lose that otherwise easy to capture money (I have a copy of Oblivion on my Mac and it runs great! BTW I own three copies of the game)

Sorry, why is the fact that people port games to Macs for free an incentive to spend money doing it? And why does the fact that you own three copies of a non mac native game indicate that they're not making money from you despite ignoring the platform? Would you have bought 25 copies if it had been Mac native or something?

7) We aren't wondering why they don't release, it is more major companies are releasing; remember epic Mac fanboiz? well they love it when companies release for Mac and snap up copies fast

Unfortunately this doesn't actually make any sense. "it is more major companies are releasing"? That's not actually a sentence, that's just a bunch of words next to each other.

If you are trying to imply that companies should make Mac ports out of the box because fanboys will buy them on principal, I think that relying on predicting the actions of stupid people for profits probably isn't a very good idea.

PS Mac sales are low because of how long they last

Well maybe you shouldn't use crappy sales as an argument as to how awesome Macs are doing then if you know it means nothing?

 

[civ_king]

[Citation needed]



[Citation needed]. Also, battery life? What?



But they will, thus negating the need to port to Macs natively from day 1. Is this point really that difficult to understand?



See the above.



Why don't you say it a 4th time, then it'll some how morph into a point.



Sorry, why is the fact that people port games to Macs for free an incentive to spend money doing it? And why does the fact that you own three copies of a non mac native game indicate that they're not making money from you despite ignoring the platform? Would you have bought 25 copies if it had been Mac native or something?



Unfortunately this doesn't actually make any sense. "it is more major companies are releasing"? That's not actually a sentence, that's just a bunch of words next to each other.

If you are trying to imply that companies should make Mac ports out of the box because fanboys will buy them on principal, I think that relying on predicting the actions of stupid people for profits probably isn't a very good idea.



Well maybe you shouldn't use crappy sales as an argument as to how awesome Macs are doing then if you know it means nothing?

1) IIRC College age correlates with video gaming and http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._40_of_college_students_plan_to_buy_macs.html
2) Five hours of movies isn't a lot? Or maybe it is only Alienware with crap battery life, also The software is optimized for he hardware so you get more out of the same hardware
3) False assumption, in fact many people I know with Macs play Mac games like WoW and not windows games
4) see above
5) Windows doesn't have a very good GUI, it is like picture cmd
6) Because the people don't buy the windows versions either
7) What's the resale value of a PC in 5 years? What's the resale value on a 5 year old Mac? ~$400 (though that's for a PowerBook G4 of 2003!)... Macs can last a good 5 years, if treated well they can last much longer

 

[Chalks]

1) IIRC College age correlates with video gaming and http://www.appleinsider.com/article..._40_of_college_students_plan_to_buy_macs.html

And a straw poll of the future intentions of a bunch of college students is about as reliable as a chocolate hair dryer. I'm pretty sure 99% of college students already own a PC. Let me know what all this proves when you work it out.

2) Five hours of movies isn't a lot? Or maybe it is only Alienware with crap battery life, also The software is optimized for he hardware so you get more out of the same hardware

Sorry, who buys a laptop primarily for games? Someone who doesn't really care about the quality of their gaming experience, obviously.

Also, you bought an Alienware product? Why? Was your wallet too heavy or something?

Alienware products are overpriced garbage for posers who want everyone to think their gaming rig is awesome because of a brand name and some shiny stickers. Rebranded Dell systems that offer barely any benefits over a custom rig you could get for half the price.

Oh, and you also like Apple Macs? I see a pattern emerging.

3) False assumption, in fact many people I know with Macs play Mac games like WoW and not windows games

Well, good for them. So they're not really into games and if WoW wasn't for Macs they wouldn't play anything. What a wonderful story. I guess they probably won't buy Civ 5 either when it comes out for Macs. When is the film coming out for this fascinating tale?

5) Windows doesn't have a very good GUI, it is like picture cmd

I see that meaningless anecdotes and personal preferences are your main argument here. OK, that's fine, I can play that game. Let me just think of something dumb to say in response...

"Macs are just shiny expensive toys for people who think showing off is more important than actually being able to run applications"

There. You can choose to argue with that point if you would like. Lets see whether you choose to drag the conversation down to that level.

6) Because the people don't buy the windows versions either

I'm sorry but:

BTW I own three copies of the game

People who? Apparently not you. Are you saying that Mac owners are all pirates? Good luck with that argument!

7) What's the resale value of a PC in 5 years? What's the resale value on a 5 year old Mac? ~$400 (though that's for a PowerBook G4 of 2003!)... Macs can last a good 5 years, if treated well they can last much longer

Yes, overpriced things have an overpriced resale value too. Impressive deduction there. Not sure what Macs being too expensive for their power has to do with out of the box support for the platform, but no, don't let me stop your enumerated listing of stuff. Keep going.

 

[Duuk]

If I sell one ham sandwich this quarter and two ham sandwiches next quarter, I'll have had 50 percent growth!

Woo!

PC sales were up 25.8% during the same period to 81.7 million units.

Top notch work Apple, way to increase market share by 0.6%!! Look out Firaxis, at this rate, in another hundred years you'll really need to consider devoting some development time to the platform!

Seriously. Do you have tunnel vision or did you intentionally post this to mislead?

Math fail:

if you sell 1 ham sammich this quarter and 2 next quarter, your sales were up 100%, not 50%.

Sales statistics for Macs are amusing. The better one is the Mac profit margin, which Mac users trumpet...

They are proud of the fact that Apple has robbed them blind.

Love it.

 

[KaiserJohan]

I'm a computer scientist. I've been working with Linux/unix(mostly), Mac and Windows. I also consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer.

The amount of Mac fanboyism is just staggering. I am still unsure if people are just trolling around or if they are actually trying to argue in favor of the Mac. As Chalk pointed out, you really don't have a grip on reality.

1) IIRC people who have Macs are more likely to play video games

You truly cannot believe that yourself?


Also, "Microsoft is an evil greedy company" -- Microsoft played some dirty cards in the 90's, there is no question about that. But compared to Apple that's just small-time. When I buy a PC, I pay for the Windows license. As for the hardware, I pick whatever products that suits my needs, from whatever developers I want. Free market, ever heard about that?
Apple will charge you buckloads for crap hardware, simply because they can. Apple-licensed software for Apple licensed hardware, and we'll sue you to death if you try any other combination. This greedy philosophy, this monopoly (which is also evident on other Apple platforms such as iPhone), is why Apple will never earn my respect... or my cash. Maybe this is perfectly fine for you, but my morals just says no.

On the more technical side, those ignorants praising Mac "because you get no virus!", probably never has figured out the technical details WHY you don't get virus. You've got more protection in your Mac simply because it's such a restrictive platform. If the PC would be a motorbike, the Mac would be a trike. Not to be rude but it really is an OS tailored for dummies, whether you like it or not. It's restrictions may be fine for your average person, but that's it.
Also, if you got trojans, virus; it's your fault, pure and simply. If you know what you are doing, you don't even need AV prog's. If you must have one, there are free products out there which work great. In general, whatever problems you encounter are results of your inexperience.

Mac vs PC is very much like the consoles; you've got Wii, PS3 and Xbox360. PS3 and Xbox360 are competitors for the gaming market while Wii caters to the casual market. They are tailored for different markets. The same applies for computers. Mac is a great OS if you want something shiny'n'flashy!, work with various audio/visual programs(which is not OS-specific, dont kid yourself) or simply wants a simple, safe OS. The company behind it just happens to be rotten to the core. Mac will never be a strong gaming platform, unless Apple changes their design philosophy.

Linux for being hardcore, Windows for it's diversity. Have fun riding your trike in your fantasy world, dummy!

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[civ_king]

And a straw poll of the future intentions of a bunch of college students is about as reliable as a chocolate hair dryer. I'm pretty sure 99% of college students already own a PC. Let me know what all this proves when you work it out.



Sorry, who buys a laptop primarily for games? Someone who doesn't really care about the quality of their gaming experience, obviously.

Also, you bought an Alienware product? Why? Was your wallet too heavy or something?

Alienware products are overpriced garbage for posers who want everyone to think their gaming rig is awesome because of a brand name and some shiny stickers. Rebranded Dell systems that offer barely any benefits over a custom rig you could get for half the price.

Oh, and you also like Apple Macs? I see a pattern emerging.



Well, good for them. So they're not really into games and if WoW wasn't for Macs they wouldn't play anything. What a wonderful story. I guess they probably won't buy Civ 5 either when it comes out for Macs. When is the film coming out for this fascinating tale?



I see that meaningless anecdotes and personal preferences are your main argument here. OK, that's fine, I can play that game. Let me just think of something dumb to say in response...

"Macs are just shiny expensive toys for people who think showing off is more important than actually being able to run applications"

There. You can choose to argue with that point if you would like. Lets see whether you choose to drag the conversation down to that level.



I'm sorry but:



People who? Apparently not you. Are you saying that Mac owners are all pirates? Good luck with that argument!



Yes, overpriced things have an overpriced resale value too. Impressive deduction there. Not sure what Macs being too expensive for their power has to do with out of the box support for the platform, but no, don't let me stop your enumerated listing of stuff. Keep going.

1) Um okay...
2) Never bought an Alienware, never said I did either, it is the pretty lights that attract the bugs; I got my MacBook for school and my Dad bought it for me (I didn't want it) and snagged it for $700, However I have found it useful for gaming because I fly a lot
3) Diablo II and Starcraft too
5) um... I had been using PCs for the last 9 years, how much time have you spent using a Mac? Also Macs run work apps just fine!
6) Never claimed any Mac owners were pirates, ever heard of a console?
7) In three years I'll sell my MacBook for ~$500 and then buy a new one, a net-cost of $200 isn't that bad right?

@Duuk I facepalm when people trumpet the profit margin too

 

[Chalks]

Math fail:

Doy! Corrected.

Also, "Microsoft is an evil greedy company"

Man, if you want to talk about an "evil greedy companies" you can start by talking about Apples anti-competitive lock out of all competing software from their app stores. Or what about their aggressive stance towards adobe flash because it is a great tool that could cut into their profits? Oh, and not to mention their extremely frightening attempt to acquire the ARM processor manufacturer to strong arm all smart phone vendors.

They are an anti-trust suit waiting to happen.

 

[KaiserJohan]

You can't seriously believe people buy a laptop for gaming. The latest macbook pro (or any PC laptop equivalent, for that matter) can't run the latest games for crap. I do use my XPS studio for Civ4 though, but don't kid yourself thinking BF:BC2 will run even at 10 fps, at best. And Alienware is crap, you pay for design, not performance, just like Mac.

 

[Chalks]

Diablo II and Starcraft too

Yeah, clearly cutting edge gaming enthusiasts. You forgot to mention space invaders.

 

[civ_king]

I'm a computer scientist. I've been working with Linux/unix(mostly), Mac and Windows. I also consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer.

The amount of Mac fanboyism is just staggering. I am still unsure if people are just trolling around or if they are actually trying to argue in favor of the Mac. As Chalk pointed out, you really don't have a grip on reality.



You truly cannot believe that yourself?


Also, "Microsoft is an evil greedy company" -- Microsoft played some dirty cards in the 90's, there is no question about that. But compared to Apple that's just small-time. When I buy a PC, I pay for the Windows license. As for the hardware, I pick whatever products that suits my needs, from whatever developers I want. Free market, ever heard about that?
Apple will charge you buckloads for crap hardware, simply because they can. Apple-licensed software for Apple licensed hardware, and we'll sue you to death if you try any other combination. This greedy philosophy, this monopoly (which is also evident on other Apple platforms such as iPhone), is why Apple will never earn my respect... or my cash. Maybe this is perfectly fine for you, but my morals just says no.

On the more technical side, those ignorants praising Mac "because you get no virus!", probably never has figured out the technical details WHY you don't get virus. You've got more protection in your Mac simply because it's such a restrictive platform. If the PC would be a motorbike, the Mac would be a trike. Not to be rude but it really is an OS tailored for dummies, whether you like it or not. It's restrictions may be fine for your average person, but that's it.
Also, if you got trojans, virus; it's your fault, pure and simply. If you know what you are doing, you don't even need AV prog's. If you must have one, there are free products out there which work great. In general, whatever problems you encounter are results of your inexperience.

Mac vs PC is very much like the consoles; you've got Wii, PS3 and Xbox360. PS3 and Xbox360 are competitors for the gaming market while Wii caters to the casual market. They are tailored for different markets. The same applies for computers. Mac is a great OS if you want something shiny'n'flashy!, work with various audio/visual programs(which is not OS-specific, dont kid yourself) or simply wants a simple, safe OS. The company behind it just happens to be rotten to the core. Mac will never be a strong gaming platform, unless Apple changes their design philosophy.

Linux for being hardcore, Windows for it's diversity. Have fun riding your trike in your fantasy world, dummy!

Who said Microsoft is evil? When did Core i7 become crap? There used to be a loophole in the OSX EULA which simply said it could only be on an Apple-label machine! No "viruses" was not a reason to get a MacBook, I run Norton Endpoint Protection.

Doy! Corrected.



Man, if you want to talk about an "evil greedy companies" you can start by talking about Apples anti-competitive lock out of all competing software from their app stores. Or what about their aggressive stance towards adobe flash because it is a great tool that could cut into their profits? Oh, and not to mention their extremely frightening attempt to acquire the ARM processor manufacturer to strong arm all smart phone vendors.

They are an anti-trust suit waiting to happen.

Indeed, also more than just smartphones use ARM

Yeah, clearly cutting edge gaming enthusiasts. You forgot to mention space invaders.

They are getting Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 too

 

[Chalks]

They are getting Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 too

Who cares? You love your completely irrelevant anecdotes, you really do.

There is absolutely nothing to your argument that suggest an out of the box Mac version of Civ 5 would make more money for Firaxis than a Mac release 6 months later.

Do you even know why you are posting this or are you just typing without engaging your brain?

 

[civ_king]

Who cares? You love your completely irrelevant anecdotes, you really do.

There is absolutely nothing to your argument that suggest an out of the box Mac version of Civ 5 would make more money for Firaxis than a Mac release 6 months later.

Do you even know why you are posting this or are you just typing without engaging your brain?

My argument? I was never arguing that, only that they should do a Mac release

 

[Chalks]

My argument? I was never arguing that, only that they should do a Mac release

You think they "should" do a Mac release out of the box?

Why should they? Because you want them to?

I want them to give me a copy for free. Should they do that too?

There are lots of things I'd like lots of people to do. It doesn't mean they "should" do them.

It is completely reasonable for them to delay the Mac release so they can get the PC version out earlier to the majority of their audience. No quantity of "I want a cookie" foot stomping is going to change that.