Horse Archer Rush - is it really that difficult?

[Todelotti]

This is me as Joao against Shaka:

Shaka has neither horses nor metal. So, I thought, nice, no Impis, this will be an easy task for Horse Archers. I'm indeed facing only Archers and sometimes a Warrior in his cities. But this city already destroyed so many HAs that I don't want to think about all the hammers I have wasted until now.

Of course the city is on a hill and has a wall, so I expected to lose a few HAs. The city was already down to only 2 damaged Archers with less than 1.0 strength, but look where it is now! Basically at the same point where I started to attack: 4 almost completely healed archers and I have only 6 (partially damaged) HAs plus a medic GG chariot. I know I cannot attack with 6 HAs (even not if they all had full strength and C1 promotions) against 4 archers in this city because I already tried that with 8 HAs and failed. I never had the feeling that HAs are so weak...

What makes things worse is that Shaka is creating one fresh archer each turn and the city size doesn't change. I don't know how he can do that. I simply cannot compete with that production rate - not anymore at least after I have chopped down almost all my forests for this failing HA army. Of course, catapults would solve all problems but fast HAs plus slow cats? Movement will take a lot more time and is that even a HA "rush"?

I really didn't expect this rush to become so difficult. What did I wrong? Is it simply that the time of HAs is over as soon as a city has walls (but that's potentially very early, just after Masonry)? Do I have to count at least 3 HAs per archer to be on the safe side? And what would you do now? Reinforce my stack until I have, say, 12 HAs and hope that he stops his infinite archer production? Or end the war as hopeless and go for cuirs instead? (But, I mean, what can you do with HAs at all if you cannot kill archers or can only do that for horrible hammer costs?)

Any tips are welcome for the right way to fight this combat!

(BTW: Difficulty is only Warlord. The game is an attempt for game #9 of the recent HoF Challenge games, targetting a space colony. I'm way, way ahead in tech and thought it's running well but now this annoying Shaka city is beginning to spoil the game due to the huge loss of forest hammers that I had liked to invest for more useful stuff.)

 

[Seraiel]

I know many people are fond of HA-rushes, I advise them too on lower difficulties sometimes, but if you ask me for my honest opinion, I'd say that HA-rush is the most difficult rush of all, unlike Elepult or Cuirassiers and it has no garantuee to work at all (I've already lost 10 HA against 5 Archers without killing even one, and that was at 1700 BC) .

Walls + Hills cities are the end of any ancient-unit-conquest. You can leave them to the owner and conquer them later, or you can clash your complete army against them Monty-style. There is also a reason, why top teams like Plastic Ducks or top players like Doshin usually war with Catapults (at least that's what I think I saw in the last SGOTMs, plz correct if wrong) .

In the current Gauntlet, Id continued warfare with Swords after the time of Immortals was over (-> civs having metals) . It was plain horrible. I built 22 Swords and lost 20 'til the end of the game, and 18-19 of that were in the early IW phase. I think there are units, that work only with luck or extreme numbers, like Axes, Swords, Chariots and HAs i. e.

I'm writing about Deity difficulty though, Shaka having 4 Archers in 1 city on Warlord is pure lol. Maybe you simply attacked to late, a typical time for a real HA-rush would i. e. be 1500 BC with 12 HAs.

 

[Todelotti]

Maybe you simply attacked to late, a typical time for a real HA-rush would i. e. be 1500 BC with 12 HAs.

First attack was around 650 BC with 8 HAs against the city in the screenshot. There were 2 other cities a bit earlier which fell easily with less HAs. But those cities didn't have walls (one on a hill though). I guess you are right: I'm just too late (again) However, the defenders (just archers) are not stronger than they would have been at 1500 BC and a city is already on a hill when it's founded. So, the crucial point is: Walls or not and one simply has to attack early enough with HAs to avoid walls? Right?

I think I will go for the other city now which doesn't have walls (yet) and is on flat land.

 

[sampsa]

If you are going for space race, I don't think you should take a de-tour to HBR. Maybe attacking earlier with chariots is better? I don't know if you can get construction via trade in a reasonable time on warlord, even if you gift some AIs some techs.

 

[Seraiel]

You can also build great numbers to succeed against Hills and Walls cities, if you capture enough Workers, don't build Stables and a Barrack only in the capital.

If this was a HoF game, 650 BC is way too late for a HA-rush, I Elepult at 500 BC usually. You really have to play enormously focussed, if you want 12 HAs at 1500 BC.

 

[Todelotti]

If you are going for space race, I don't think you should take a de-tour to HBR. Maybe attacking earlier with chariots is better? I don't know if you can get construction via trade in a reasonable time on warlord, even if you gift some AIs some techs.

Nobody has construction yet. The AI seems to be really slow on Warlord. But I think you are right, that I should have done all that much earlier.

You can also build great numbers to succeed against Hills and Walls cities, if you capture enough Workers...

I don't see a lot more workers (I captured 2 until now) in Shaka's borders and because most of my forests are already lost I doubt that I can reach great numbers of HAs in reasonable time. Maybe best is now to try for the other Shaka city, park the rest of my HAs there, wait until I have cats and then attack that annoying city again with cats and HAs to eliminate at least Shaka quickly. Elepult is no option: No jumbos close to me.

Generally for the game, I'm thinking to settle new cities myself now (Joao is IMP/EXP and I still have a lot of room for at least 5 to 10 more cities) and if I pass Cannons, Rifles or even Tanks on my tech path then do something terrible with the other neighbouring AIs. If I see I'm approaching a ridiculous date (Neil set the target with 1620 AD) I stop that attempt as a failed attempt due to my rush incompetence.

 

[Gumbolt]

From an immortal point of view.

HA rush are a curse. Especially when trying them against Roman or Sumerians. The minute Prets or Vultures appear it makes the job that much harder.

I think the key is getting the rushes out sooner, cutting off metal resources and taking out the capital ASAP.

One of the most biggest obstacle is reach HBR/Archery asap. This is normally the biggest issue for me.If you build too many cities too soon it slows down science. Then you have the issue over techs. You can't go for every tech. Not having BW would certainly slow you down. No granary slows regrowth for whips.

Of course the final big hurdle is finding horse. Sometimes settling a really poor horse resource is at times too big a price to pay.

On a good game hopefully all these parts of the jigsaw will just slide into place. Of course rushes don't work for all maps.

Oh if you are struggling on rushes on Warlord something must be going wrong at start. The science rate on Warlord is much faster than higher levels. Plus the AI start with warriors making chariot rushes possible.

 

[Testhero]

It is not the walls alone that are making this city a bridge too far the cultural defense of the city is up too 50% so without some off setting bonus like cover or city attack whatever unit you use is going to take catastrophic losses.

Pillage the heck out of this city and let it wither on the vine (you can spread out some and still heal with your GG medic) move on to his other cities which as you say are open just check that cultural defense bonus.

You can bring up siege weapons and a swordsman or two to guard them and make the initial breach so you can clean up with your ponies on their way back home.

I am at this same point in my current game [normal continents speed & size prince vs 3x2man teams]as Cyrus waring with Hatchetsup and Monazuma. Monty has no stone (and I plundered his copper and iron to open the ball) so now I am leaving some experienced immortals to invest his jungle hill cities while the noobies are forming stacks to push past Monties jungles and storm Hattie's weaker flatland cities. you will have to picket his rather than investing as unlike imortals HA's don't receive terrain defense. My heroic Epic city is quite close to the front luckily so the onegars and storm-troops are folowing up quickly. I have diverted a lot of workers to push a military road straight past Montie's cities which have made this easy by stringing along a mostly straight river
I am trading off a quick early victory against the Monty Hatty team Vs a bunch more cottages which I will miss taking on the last Roosevelt & AlSalahidin team (my first whipped and chopped Immortals already Took out the Alexander Quin team. No way I wanted Phalanxs messing up my game Traded Infrastructure for Beijing and Athens burning their second cities to avoid the maintenance)

You have to beeline Horseback archery to get out real early, luck out finding horses near enough to do some good and probably settle your second city on the horses so you can get in a good long rampage.

As you say you are way ahead in tech you can look forward to guilds and trading up to knights soon

Feeling daring got a settler to spare; send your settler right up to the front plant a city right next to a juicy enemy city then upgrade all your HA's to knights and head away from your city (menace some city etc other than your true target)it usually sucks the defenders out of position for a quick riposte and you swap your city for theirs.

 

[Pangaea]

Maybe you've been too slow, but I think the main issue here is to attack a hill city behind walls. They're almost impregnable. If you read my last update in the gauntlet thread, I did something similar too. Attacked a city, thought I could take it, but didn't have sufficient force or the RNG on my side, and lost loads of guys instead. It hurts. In this case, as I eventually did too, it's better to move around the toughest point and take his other cities. That prevents him from sending reinforcements and weakens his economy. If you still can't get through with HAs, then come with catas or better later. Once the wall is down, everything fall much easier, even if hill archers are still merciless.

Also, if you can't take the city, it's better to pull back and come back in later with a strong enough force. Sitting in the BFC will just make the AI mass-produce defenders. If you move out, maybe he will slow down on the whipping and production (I'm talking in general here, sounds like Monty didn't whip in your game), and with luck some defenders will move away.

Another trick that I've tried to use from time to time, is to leave a city near the frontline empty. That will sometimes tempt the AI to send defenders to try to take it, and then you can catch them in the open.

HA rushes can be tricky, especially on higher levels, where the AI will get metals very quickly. On Warlord it should be easier of course, but you still need to find horse nearby, and that can be tough.

 

[Todelotti]

Oh if you are struggling on rushes on Warlord something must be going wrong at start. The science rate on Warlord is much faster than higher levels. Plus the AI start with warriors making chariot rushes possible.

From a research viewpoint the start and the game up to now were not the real problem. I'm finishing Education in 3 turns (can't bulb because I couldn't create another GS as fast as research goes) and I have already done the whole upper art branch including Music while half of the AIs have neither Alpha nor Math. Maybe this fast tech advance was the problem as I was in a tech rush and perhaps thought a Horse Archer with half researched Education is stronger. Nah, seriously, I think, it's just my lack of knowing the right timing for a battle with the right units. Have to improve the whole combat part of the game.

In this case, as I eventually did too, it's better to move around the toughest point and take his other cities. That prevents him from sending reinforcements and weakens his economy.

I attacked the other city now - and it probably was the right decision. While I was moving the city in the screeny got 7 Archers! The other city was very easy to capture (no hill, no wall, 2 archers) with no loss. It also had 2 Settlers in it and a Worker on a nearby tile. Made a peace treaty with Shaka now and will see if I can resume later.

 

[Gumbolt]

Yeah HA rushing while researching EDU is very late. As Seraiel suggest HA rushes are for early game pre feudalism. Pre metal units too.

Key thing for war is to go in with the right numbers to cover primary objective. Normally to take down the AI capital. The longer you spend at war the more units the AI will spam. Especially if on slavery. Always worth scoting out the AI before an attack. 7 archers in 1 city sounds a lot for any level. Suggests to me the Ai had whipped 3-4 of them to defend city. Did you go in with one big stack of 10-12 HA?

 

[Todelotti]

Yeah HA rushing while researching EDU is very late. As Seraiel suggest HA rushes are for early game pre feudalism. Pre metal units too.

Key thing for war is to go in with the right numbers to cover primary objective. Normally to take down the AI capital. The longer you spend at war the more units the AI will spam. Especially if on slavery. Always worth scoting out the AI before an attack. 7 archers in 1 city sounds a lot for any level. Suggests to me the Ai had whipped 3-4 of them to defend city. Did you go in with one big stack of 10-12 HA?

With a stack of 8 HAs and 1 or 2 reinforcement a turn later. The weird thing is that his Archers went from 2 to 7 within a few turns but city size didn't change at all. I can only imagine that he's either producing very fast or those Archers came from his second city or it's a combination of both. It didn't look like whipping.

 

[lymond]

For this game, especially being HoF, your HA rush seems quite a bit late, although still should be effective on this level. On Warlord level though, a Chariot rush should be much more effective and faster without the costly HBR diversion. (Ofc, really you can often take out 2 or 3 AIs with a warrior rush first thing..leave No City Razing on) If you have horse online very early, you can often be facing only or mostly warriors with a chariot rush on this level.

As for HA rush in generally, the key to success is tactics. HA rushes can be successful on every level, even Deity, although the lifespan obviously varies by level and map. For Deity, it is often just taking out or cripping one AI while making some gains.

You can often hit some very bad luck when you just slam a stack of HAs into a well defended city. First, generally you want to have performed some reasonable scouting of the enemy's city to know here metals are and what cities are well/poorly defended. Depending on the speed of getting the rush in place, you want to quick strike weaker border cities. However, troop placements may not always be in your favor as sometimes the inner cities or cap are actually less defended than the outlying cities.

This is where the "fork" comes into play. The fork is one of the best tactic of an HA rush. AIs are notorious for pulling away units from cities if you threaten others. Forking involves positioning your stack in attack range of 2 or more cities simultaneously. This will often confuse the AI into moving units to defend one or the other leaving at least one city more vulnerable. (Ofc, this is a tactic of Cur rushing too). I encourage you to practice this.

In the same vein though, if you come to a city where the odds don't seem in your favor, it may be best to divert your troops to other cities and look to wipe out units in the field in the process, as you look for weak spots. Ultimately when you take on any city with an HA stack you pretty much want it to fall on the first turn of attack or left in a position where odds are very much in your favor on the next turn to take it.

Also, note that if you have the production, you should try sending multiple stacks at the enemy. A main stack and a lesser stack somewhere else. This will confuse the AI quite a bit as well. The lesser stack can focus on clearing units from moving outside cities, pillage (including metals), and, ofc, possibly taking out weaker cities if opportunities present themselves. Like the fork, multi-stacks confuse the AI into not being sure where they need to send units. You want to take cities fast, the faster you take the the less production the AI has..that is the key to mounted warfare. (Note: the need to pillage metals depends greatly on the timing and/or size of empire at the time of the rush. Spears suck, but AI often does not build many - at least until the fighting starts, so, if you can hit quickly, 1 or 2 spears should not be an issue - thus, not having to lose a good improvement to pillaging that needs worker turns later)

HA rush on Warlords level should have a considerably long success life well into the ADs. It appears here that you just simply got caught using a bad approach or not thinking it through properly - plus some bad luck. It certainly takes a bit of time and practice to get good at HA rush, but it is an extremely effective form of warfare in the game - one of the best really. I do question though your usage of it here in a Warlords level space game...probably not necessary.

 

[pandamancer]

(wall hilled city to be exact. jk)

I think there is some sort of bad luck here. Personally, I am not fond of HA rushes.

 

[Ringo Kid]

For one thing you need more horse archers. And maybe for this example flanking promotions instead of combat. But I have always found that the one thing you need for a horse archer victory is large numbers of them. And if you don't have catapults spies causing city revolts can be a huge help.

 

[SpK]

If you have one handy, or the time, you can bring a scout along, leave it 2 spots from the city all by itself, with your HA 2 spots away somewhere else. usually the AI will go for the scout bait, sometimes even 2 of them, to help lower the defenders in the city

Sounds like you will pass this pebble in your road soon though

 

[Flipantropo]

In my opinion, you just had to rethink your objectives. Biggest advantage of horse archers is their mobility, so just go around pillaging roads (and most importantly strategic resources) and attacking the enemy where he is weakest. He cant possibly move his infantry as fast as you can move your HAs through his territory (he wont have roads on every tile that early) so you can at least cripple him and take some badly defended cities. Sometimes theyll try to move defenders from their fortresses to weaker cities you are threatening, leaving archers who will get nowhere in time vulnerable in the open. Or giving a chance to take the fortress itself now that there are fewer defenders. In the situation shown in your picture, Itd probably be a good idea to circle around and go for Nobamba (after healing). Just abuse their 2 movement and look for weak spots.

 

[Todelotti]

For this game, especially being HoF, your HA rush seems quite a bit late, although still should be effective on this level. On Warlord level though, a Chariot rush should be much more effective and faster without the costly HBR diversion. (Ofc, really you can often take out 2 or 3 AIs with a warrior rush first thing..leave No City Razing on) If you have horse online very early, you can often be facing only or mostly warriors with a chariot rush on this level.

As for HA rush in generally, the key to success is tactics. HA rushes can be successful on every level, even Deity, although the lifespan obviously varies by level and map. For Deity, it is often just taking out or cripping one AI while making some gains.

You can often hit some very bad luck when you just slam a stack of HAs into a well defended city. First, generally you want to have performed some reasonable scouting of the enemy's city to know here metals are and what cities are well/poorly defended. Depending on the speed of getting the rush in place, you want to quick strike weaker border cities. However, troop placements may not always be in your favor as sometimes the inner cities or cap are actually less defended than the outlying cities.

This is where the "fork" comes into play. The fork is one of the best tactic of an HA rush. AIs are notorious for pulling away units from cities if you threaten others. Forking involves positioning your stack in attack range of 2 or more cities simultaneously. This will often confuse the AI into moving units to defend one or the other leaving at least one city more vulnerable. (Ofc, this is a tactic of Cur rushing too). I encourage you to practice this.

In the same vein though, if you come to a city where the odds don't seem in your favor, it may be best to divert your troops to other cities and look to wipe out units in the field in the process, as you look for weak spots. Ultimately when you take on any city with an HA stack you pretty much want it to fall on the first turn of attack or left in a position where odds are very much in your favor on the next turn to take it.

Also, note that if you have the production, you should try sending multiple stacks at the enemy. A main stack and a lesser stack somewhere else. This will confuse the AI quite a bit as well. The lesser stack can focus on clearing units from moving outside cities, pillage (including metals), and, ofc, possibly taking out weaker cities if opportunities present themselves. Like the fork, multi-stacks confuse the AI into not being sure where they need to send units. You want to take cities fast, the faster you take the the less production the AI has..that is the key to mounted warfare. (Note: the need to pillage metals depends greatly on the timing and/or size of empire at the time of the rush. Spears suck, but AI often does not build many - at least until the fighting starts, so, if you can hit quickly, 1 or 2 spears should not be an issue - thus, not having to lose a good improvement to pillaging that needs worker turns later)

HA rush on Warlords level should have a considerably long success life well into the ADs. It appears here that you just simply got caught using a bad approach or not thinking it through properly - plus some bad luck. It certainly takes a bit of time and practice to get good at HA rush, but it is an extremely effective form of warfare in the game - one of the best really. I do question though your usage of it here in a Warlords level space game...probably not necessary.

Thanks lymond, that's a great post with lots of details and ideas! I'll try to practice this next time.

 

[Kallikrates]

Unless one wants to rake in points for highscores or HoF (something I myself have no interest in whatsoever) I think one should really think about whether any kind of "rush" makes sense *in the particular situation in the game*. On the lower levels one can probably rush and still get important early wonders or even finish the game with horse archers. I do not think this is terribly interesting as soon as one is past the lower levels. Already on monarch lvl one has to find some balance and make decisions unless your early rush victim was so nice to build the wonders you want (like pyramids) for you.
Horse archer warfare is harder than most others for several reasons:
- you fight roughly at tech parity and very probably the enemy will have specific counter-units (because spears are around EARLIER than HAs) Therefore one has to be bloody early (see Seraiel's dates above of 1500 BC) to hopefully face only archers
- without siege, hill cities, PRO opponents and CRE leaders can be a big PitA because of the accumulated boni of the archers. This holds for all early warfare and therefore again the date is important and the window of opportunity (on normal speed) comparably small even on intermediate levels like prince/monarch (BIG difference to most elephant/siege/Cuirassier or later warfare)
- the techs for HA require you frequently to stray from "ideal" tech paths for important economic techs. In most of my games I will trade for hunting, archery, HBR, that is get them very late (too late for any HA rush) because writing, alpha, currency etc. are so important (BIG difference to earlier rushes only requiring AH/wheel or BW all of which you usually need in any case)
- also note that before alpha you cannot even get techs for peace treaties, so you may not be able to use the war to backfill techs
- recovery might be harder because one had to prioritize HBR and gets later to e.g. currency.
- another main drawback compared to other early warfare is the high cost of HBR and need for archery. Even on maps without high commerce you can get War chariots, Immortals and axes *much* earlier, they are cheaper than HAs and the first two are as fast. And even those rushes can be hazardous against PRO opponents.
- of course many of these points do not matter with 2 gems starts (because your research is so much faster than otherwise). But with such starts almost EVERYTHING is easier.
- all this applies mainly to war for conquest, not to crippling/harrassing an AI. I do not know enough about those tactics, HAs are probably very good here because of their 2 moves.

No doubt, there are skilled players who can pull those rushes off (there is one lets play on ytube on deity with Hannibal?, do not remember the name of the player, with luck and craft he even built the GLH before the rush, so it is comparably late) and it depends on map and level. But I do not think HA warfare should be considered a strategy that is easy or safe (at least on normal speed and monarch and above). I think in many cases one is better off delaying warfare until either elephants or maybe even easier cuirassiers. Unless one has a strong early UU (WC, Praet etc.).

 

[Tatran]

If the barbarians can successfully do a horse archer rush, OP should also be able to do so.