Horse Archers

[aelf]

I've heard of numerous complaints against this unit. Indeed, from my own experience, it's difficult to think of reasons for using them at all.

They will clearly own enemies with only archers, probably poor souls denied of metals. But even the AI is smart enough to put a spearman in most of its cities if it could. So, unless you want to go for a strategy of overwhelming the only spear and the archers in a city with numbers, you won't be using your horse archers. Even if you choose to use this tactics (maybe with Keshiks), you are goign to have to build an army of horsemen from scratch instead of building several cats and using your by-now seasoned axemen/swordsmen. A mobile army this early won't do you much good if you can't conquer so many cities anyway, and their casualty rates (vs slow army with cats) will put an end to dreams of early world-domination.

For pillaging purposes, the chariot is actually much better. You shouldn't count on the pillagers surviving. Neither horse archers nor Keshiks get defensive bonuses, and spears and elephants will eat them up. In view of this, chariots, at half the cost and the same number of moves, are way more effective. Thus, don't you think NOT getting Horseback Riding is actually a good tactic for pillaging?

Clearly, the horse archer requires some major improvement. Their counter-catapult ability is a sorry excuse for a niche (who comes with unescorted catapults?). Maybe they are already slated for it in the expansion. But I would still like to see them strengthened in an upcoming patch for cIV vanilla before the expansion. For example, they could do with the chariot's withdrawal chances and a lower cost (maybe 40 hammers instead of 50). Plus, I think Horseback Riding should be made cheaper to research. This will make the strat of beelining to it and building an army of horse archers actually viable and a good option for a player with no metals.

As for the Keshik, its current ignore-terrain advantage is highly situational and makes a mockery of the greatness of the Golden Horde. I think in addition to receiving the improvement for horse archers I mentioned above, Keshiks should also be getting defensive bonuses. After all, aren't they famous for their brilliant use of the terrain to their advantage?

Any thoughts/comments? Maybe people who know how to use the current horse archer effectively can shed some light on its proper role?

 

[slightlymarxist]

spears and elephants will eat them up. In view of this, chariots, at half the cost and the same number of moves, are way more effective. Thus, don't you think NOT getting Horseback Riding is actually a good tactic for pillaging?

Horseback Riding doesn't obsolete Chariots. You can still build them, alongside Horse Archers. I think it has something to do with upgrade paths.

That said, I rarely use Horse Archers for anything but border running and smacking the odd non-spearman that dare wander into my territory UNLESS... I have Horses, but no Copper or Iron.

I agree though, I seem to build axemen every single game, but not horse archers.

 

[Oggums]

For me, there are two reasons I like horse archers.

The first is the most obvious, and that's for homeland defense. Their strength and mobility makes them ideal for picking off pillagers.

Secondly, and this is my favorite, is that Horse Archers are extremely useful when you want to cripple a rival, but you just can't afford to take more land. Consider a map with a financial leader, such as Washington, with a large territory on the other end of the continent. If you produce 2-3 pillaging stacks consisting of horses/spears/axes (with aggressive/vassalage you can get shock axes, formation spears and a medic straight out of the barracks), then you can start a very effective pillaging war by unleashing them on that financial leader's cottages. The extra movement for the horses lets you move the stack and pillage every turn, and their high strength plus the mixed unit support makes those stacks difficult to kill. You can get pretty far and devastate their economy, so they don't run away in techs while you recover from your initial land grab. You also get a lot of gold.

You can just use chariots for the pillaging, but your stacks will probably die sooner.

 

[eric_]

My ideas about horse archers (and other mobile units) from another thread:

One thing I still wish was possible was to get some sort of "maneuvers" promotion. This would increase the chances of a unit "dodging" the units that counter it, and attacking the units it counters. So if a horse archer attacks a stack with spearmen and cats, maneuvers 1 would give, say, a 20% chance of the horse "flanking" the stack and going to battle with the cat instead of the spears.

Come to think of it, it could even be added on as a 2nd level and/or third level flanking promotion.

Flanking I: 20% (?) chance of withdrawal
Flanking II: 30% (?) chance of withdrawal, 20% chance of flank
Flanking III: 40% (?) chance of withdrawal, 30% chance of flank

The is that it would bypass its counter in order to specifically attack the unit that it is most capable of defeating. So if there's a stack with cats, spears, and axes, a horse archer would have a chance to bypass the spears and attack the cat. If there's cannons, a cavalry will have a chance to bypass rifles and hit the cannon...etc.

If a stack has no cats, it could bypass and hit the unit it is most likely to defeat...

The idea is not that it would bypass the BEST unit in the stack, just the unit(s) that counter it...so if there's a weak spearman and a strong, mounted unit promoted axe, and that's it, the bypass may not be advantageous. Also, the more counter units in the stack, the lower the chance of bypass, at a rate of, say, 5% per unit (except the first one)?

And maybe one of the benefits of the new Warlord GP could be to prevent flanking of this nature. That could be called maneuvers and the flanking could be tacked on to the current "flanking" promotion, which as it is now should really be called "retreat" anyway.

Thoughts? This would give it a pre-cats chance at bypassing spears and attacking another unit in a stack.

Atreas then point out:

My only addition is that this should never happen if the defenders are into a city or a fortress (you can say that you haven't enough "visibility" to aim your attacks). Maybe this would make fortresses worth of something, and also mounted units would be able to really harm axemen stacks in the open, unless they have adequate protection (this is excellent realism).

Which I think is a great point. This would make horse archers (and other mobile units) more formiddable on the field, but would reflect the reality that fortresses and cities make flanking pretty much impossible.

 

[nealhunt]

I think the power of Spearmen v Horse Archers is overrated. If you are willing to sacrifice a horse archer for each spearman you should do fine. The strengths aren't so far apart that they can't do serious damage to a spearman and once damaged that +100% bonus drops significantly in value.

Is that ideal? No. But if you rush Horse Archers you can take the first few cities without encountering spearmen at all. If you then have to sacrifice a few to finish off an opponent, I'd rather do that than have to put up with the "we long to join our motherland" happiness penalty for the rest of the game.

Also, try baiting enemy spearmen out of the cities. If you put a horse archer 2 squares away, sometimes the AI will send a spear to make the easy kill. You can then ambush the spear with a nearby axeman.


To be fair, I don't make a habit of these tactics. However, if the terrain dictates that I need to go for archery and/or animal husbandry for military techs it sometimes works out better to simply move on to horse archers.

 

[eric_]

Although Oggums has a good point about why the work as is. I definitely make good use of them...I just think flanking is one of the most effective and devastating tactics in real warfare, and should be worked into the game a bit.

 

[Immaculate]

My thoughts:

there needs to be two units opened up with horseback riding tech.

1) horse archer. essentially as is, bonus vs. spearmen and axemen (who don't have a shield), no bonus vs. catapults

Main use should be to pillage and harass (historically this is accurate i believe)

2) light lancer. like horse archer, bonus vs. archers, catapults and other lightly-armored, slow-moving enemies, very weak vs. spearman, and of course phalanxes, requires metals but does not require archery. more expensive, slightly stronger

Main use is to flank opposing armies to get to the tasty missile units that don't stand up well to calvary (historically this is part of their role- in addition to anchoring flanks and crushing into disorganized units that have already engaged infantry units)


Knights should be like upgraded light lancers. Horse archers shouldn't really have an upgrade (kay, maybe gunships)

Every play Rome:total war? If you have, you will appreciate the differences between lancers and horse archers.

 

[otomik]

Oggums is right, you can still get a lot out of the horse archers mobility if you opt to make your army on your enemies territory. Consider the fact that you often take a small city on their border and enslave their population to rush out some axes to protect your pillagers, when the population is at one and improvements are raided you leave the city knowing it will be destroyed when they attempt to retake it or you can give the city to a neutral power and cause border disputes for the civ you're pillaging. Meanwhile you can get an improved visibility promotion that allows you to cut off their supply of metals. The AI doesn't make many spearman, neither do humans and that improved visibility promotion makes them easy to avoid. This is how the mongols conquered, superior recon.

 

[UnspokenRequest]

For me, there are two reasons I like horse archers.

The first is the most obvious, and that's for homeland defense. Their strength and mobility makes them ideal for picking off pillagers.

Secondly, and this is my favorite, is that Horse Archers are extremely useful when you want to cripple a rival, but you just can't afford to take more land. Consider a map with a financial leader, such as Washington, with a large territory on the other end of the continent. If you produce 2-3 pillaging stacks consisting of horses/spears/axes (with aggressive/vassalage you can get shock axes, formation spears and a medic straight out of the barracks), then you can start a very effective pillaging war by unleashing them on that financial leader's cottages. The extra movement for the horses lets you move the stack and pillage every turn, and their high strength plus the mixed unit support makes those stacks difficult to kill. You can get pretty far and devastate their economy, so they don't run away in techs while you recover from your initial land grab. You also get a lot of gold.

You can just use chariots for the pillaging, but your stacks will probably die sooner.

The second strategy is very intertesting. I'll probably use it next time I want to cripple an opponent. However it's very situational. And usually I'm not too much of a pillager. I usually go to war for conquest. Still, it's very interesting

As for picking up pillagers. That's probably one of the few use I've found for them. Still, I always found it very ironic that a mounted unit, theoratically made for speed and offense, has been turned into a defensive unit due to its lack of appeal for "mainstream" strategies...

 

[eric_]

you will appreciate the differences between lancers and horse archers.

I've actually always kind of wondered why there is no early non-archer horseman, and why a horse archer, who presumably wouldn't need to go anywhere near a spear, is weak against spearmen.

 

[Oggums]

The second strategy is very intertesting. I'll probably use it next time I want to cripple an opponent. However it's very situational. And usually I'm not too much of a pillager. I usually go to war for conquest. Still, it's very interesting.

Yes, it's very situational. On a "wide" continent, you can hit different civs in your initial grab, and take a couple of different civ's capital cities. But sometimes, for example, you have to go through one civ just to get to the next one's borders. If by then you already have 10+ cities, you're putting in courthouses and running 0% science, and maybe they have longbows and catapults already, you just can't afford to take any more. You have to do something to control your continent, and pillaging is the best way to manage it. Horse Archers are extremely useful under those conditions.

 

[eric_]

Oh...hehehe...

There is a weaker horseman...the chariot...

But I remain confused about why a horse archer, who can pick and run, is weak against spears.

 

[Oggums]

It's really just mounted vs. pike, and they chose an inappropriate name with horse archer. Ignore the name and just look at them as a base unit in a game design.

 

[eric_]

Yeah, I mean, that's what I do to prevent a mind implosion

 

[pigswill]

I guess in a strategy thread we're talking about using horse archers as they currently exist rather than talking about different ways they could be improved. A bonus against catapults is pretty weak given their vulnerability to spears; I guess not many people have seen an all catapult stack. In terms of stacking them with heavy units to pillage that makes use of their extra move but if you stack a chariot with heavy units you get the same feature at half price. They are slightly stronger than axes (depending on promotions) and axes don't get automatic bonusses against them so potentially useful against an unbalanced axeman stack (but axes are cheaper) and an alternative to shock axes for defending against pillagers, particularly with more mobility. Can be useful for pillaging but a defending spear using roads is likely to have the same mobility: doesn't stop them being stronger than chariots. Immunity to first strike would be useful if you encountered archers outside cities. While you can find benefits to horse archers you have to look for them and a 50 hammer unit from a dead end tech is rarely going to be a high priority.
Edit: its kinda strange you don't get the same level of criticism when you get to cavalry.

 

[eric_]

A bonus against catapults is pretty weak given their vulnerability to spears; I guess not many people have seen an all catapult stack.

Hence why I feel a "bypass counter unit" bonus (as per my earlier post) as part of the flank promotion would be an excellent improvement. As is, the bonus against cats is rarely if ever useful.

 

[gunkulator]

For the upcoming Warlords expansion, Horse Archers may see a revival of usefulness. Civs with the new Protective trait get free Drill I and Drill II promotions for their archery (and artillery) units. Unpromoted that's 2-3 first strikes for an archer. For just 2 XP, archers can have Drill III which means 4-5 first strikes. Ouch! Axeman could get eaten alive. Chariots and Horse Archer's immunity to first strikes may start to become a valuable ability against Protective civs.

 

[eric_]

Edit: its kinda strange you don't get the same level of criticism when you get to cavalry.

I think this is why:

Spearman: +100% against mounted units
Horse Archer w/Shock = +25% against melee (including Spearman).

OTOH

Rifleman: +25% against mounted units
Cavalry w/Pinch = +25% against gunpowder units

So with one promotion Cavalry has more or less balanced its counters bonus. Horse Archers are still at a 75% disadvantage.

 

[Oggums]

In terms of stacking them with heavy units to pillage that makes use of their extra move but if you stack a chariot with heavy units you get the same feature at half price.

I think you will find two huge differences if you just use chariots (which is what I used to use because they're cheap). First, when you get to that iron with an axe sitting on it, you will lose a chariot (or maybe an axe if you use that first). Secondly, your stack has a much longer lifespan in general with horse archers.

And the catapult bonus doesn't hurt to have when you're using them to pillage. The AI always tosses cats at you.

 

[eric_]

Ah...that's a good point. The AI does throw unaided cats at you if you bring a stack to their territory...another use for Horses as they are.