How about Civilization VII being in early access ?

[Laurana Kanan]

Moderator Action: Since the OP is proposing a suggested change for the next Civ release, thread moved to Ideas & Suggestions.

 

[Naokaukodem]

We do have open betas. It's called release.

The best part about it is you can charge people for it. Why go out of your way to polish a product when you can make $$$ anyways?

Ah ah, yes ! That's true ! Nowadays at least... I would even say that all games are in early access now. That makes me think... Isn't there any rule or which one of open betas and early access are the most advanced ? I know Baldur's Gate 3 propose only one chapter for example. (and I believe it's in early access ?)

 

[Socrates99]

From what I hear in this forum there is still a consequent number of bugs... despite the development and the players feedback, so... ok there is this development way of doing that doesn't help, with constant DLC, expansions, new game modes, etc... and i guess some crashes are due to computer/OS configuration or state or something... 2K stuff then.

Anyway. Surprised by the relative lack of enthousiasm. I would have think some Civ early access/open beta/alpha would have been exciting to most of you... I guess most of you are game breakers, not builders. But it's sometime by testing the break that one builds... Oh, and you are poll breakers, too !



Baldur's Gate 3 ?

There's a 20 year gap between 2 and 3. That's like resurrecting a dead franchise.

 

[The googles do nothing]

Yes - If there is artificial learning integrated into the game to help the AI learn the game and the early access requires you to take part.

 

[Xur]

The problem isn't AI alone. Even if the AI plays like a Cyberdyne clone, then the current version of civ does not immerse you into history and you never feel like you are in control. You are grinding through mouse clicks that seem like a carbon copy of the previous game you played. I would prefer a simpler game that was immersive and that the AI could understand. It feels like I'm playing a weird mix of mahjong and chess when I'm playing civ6 - it's a game. It might even be a good game for some, but not what I expect from a civ game.

 

[Naokaukodem]

There's a 20 year gap between 2 and 3. That's like resurrecting a dead franchise.

Larian Studio, the studio behind BG3, comes from 2 great success in the past years. (the DOS saga) Their size and competence must be comparable to Firaxis'.

 

[Zaarin]

Early access is for indie and small-to-medium developers. While larger developers could probably benefit from adopting such practices, I don't see that happening. Plus a litany of unfinished early access games has given the entire practice a shady reputation that corporations wouldn't touch with a twenty-foot pole.

Larian Studio, the studio behind BG3, comes from 2 great success in the past years. (the DOS saga) Their size and competence must be comparable to Firaxis'.

Larian Studios is an independent mid-sized studio; Firaxis is a division of 2K, a publisher perhaps better known for games like BioShock, Grand Theft Auto, and Red Dead Redemption. They are a AAA publisher with all that implies.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Early access is for indie and small-to-medium developers. While larger developers could probably benefit from adopting such practices, I don't see that happening. Plus a litany of unfinished early access games has given the entire practice a shady reputation that corporations wouldn't touch with a twenty-foot pole.

There exists a various range of good early access. Larian is a great studio and BG3 a AAA.

Larian Studios is an independent mid-sized studio; Firaxis is a division of 2K, a publisher perhaps better known for games like BioShock, Grand Theft Auto, and Red Dead Redemption. They are a AAA publisher with all that implies.

Too bad for Firaxis. But in size and competence, they are comparable. That's what matters here. Bioshock, Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption have nothing to do with Firaxis, eventhough their main shareholder is 2K.

 

[Zaarin]

There exist a various range of good early access.

I know; I've participated in a few of them. I'm just saying it has a bad reputation.

Larian is a great studio

...No comment. (They make decent games; I'm just not fond of their writing style or worldbuilding. I got very bored with DOS2 very quickly despite the innovative gameplay. Wouldn't mind seeing Obsidian steal their engine, though.)

BG3 a AAA.

Not really. There's a reason you don't see BioWare clinging to their old IP even as they flail in deep water of their own making.

Too bad for Firaxis. But in size and competence, they are comparable. That's what matters here. Bioshock, Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption have nothing to do with Firaxis, eventhough their main shareholder is 2K.

The point is that Firaxis is not an independent studio; it is a division of 2K, a large corporation with tight control of its subsidiaries. Firaxis is not at liberty to act like a mid-sized independent studio, even if it superficially resembles one.

 

[Naokaukodem]

I know; I've participated in a few of them. I'm just saying it has a bad reputation.

A "bad reputation" doesn't mean there not a market for it.

Not really. There's a reason you don't see BioWare clinging to their old IP even as they flail in deep water of their own making.

Yes it is. It's not because it's in isometrical 3D and not "third person" that it's not a AAA. And it has never been the IP of Bioware. It's Wizards of the Coast that owns the rights.

Firaxis is not at liberty to act like a mid-sized independent studio

What do you know about it ? If they want to do so, they may ask to 2K, but it may not be a long discussion in order to accept that. I mean, Firaxis eventhough it is owned by 2K, make their own games with own means. Be attached to 2K is no big deal here. It's falacious.

 

[frutiemax]

They need to get rid of the hex grid system to make it a different game...

 

[Zaarin]

Yes it is. It's not because it's in isometrical 3D and not "third person" that it's not a AAA.

Well, I mean, that's certainly part of it. Isometric is, sadly, very out of fashion. That's why Obsidian is making bad action RPGs now instead of the isometric RPGs they're so good at. But you're right, that's not why it's not a AAA game. It's not a AAA game because it's being developed by a mid-sized studio on a budget.

And it has never been the IP of Bioware. It's Wizards of the Coast that owns the rights.

Clearly you're unfamiliar with how rabid BioWare is with any IP they've worked on in the past. If I were Larian I'd watch my back around BioWare; just ask Obsidian.

What do you know about it ? If they want to do so, they may ask to 2K, but it may not be a long discussion in order to accept that. I mean, Firaxis eventhough it is owned by 2K, make their own games with own means. Be attached to 2K is no big deal here. It's falacious.

Everything in Firaxis' behavior points to 2K governing with an iron fist, which shouldn't be surprising because that's how the big publishers work. However, I think this is the part where I bow out of this discussion; I have no interest in a discussion with someone who isn't participating in good faith. If you want to believe in 2K's beneficence, I have no vested interest in stopping you.

 

[Naokaukodem]

Well, I mean, that's certainly part of it. Isometric is, sadly, very out of fashion. That's why Obsidian is making bad action RPGs now instead of the isometric RPGs they're so good at. But you're right, that's not why it's not a AAA game. It's not a AAA game because it's being developed by a mid-sized studio on a budget.

It is as much an AAA as Civ is, or not. They are both in the same boat, despite your contradictions. Firaxis doesn't need infinite budget from 2K, because they work in mid-sized team and don't need a massive staff for doing games like Civilization. That would be counter-productive. That's why I reiterate my affirmation that Baldur's gate 3 is comparable to Civilization. That's all what we need to know according to the original question of Socrates99.

Everything in Firaxis' behavior points to 2K governing with an iron fist, which shouldn't be surprising because that's how the big publishers work.

I'm don't know how crappy and toxic some big publishers may be, but it's not in the interest of 2K to dictate Firaxis what to do next. Firaxis are the pro of Civ, not 2K. If early access or open beta would appear to be a good solution for a such open minded company such as Firaxis, in order to take ideas or abilities from its community, then it's likely 2K would accept it. That's what I would do. You apparently miss the benefits of such ways of developping, that calls for less crappy/buggy releases.

 

[Zegangani]

I would rather have an early DLL release, since the Game will be how the Devs are designing it anyway (maybe with some features that are inspired by Fans).

With a released DLL we would at least be able to Fix Bugs and improve the Gameplay and AI ourselves.

 

[Gedemon]

I would rather have an early DLL release, since the Game will be how the Devs are designing it anyway (maybe with some features that are inspired by Fans).

With a released DLL we would at least be able to Fix Bugs and improve the Gameplay and AI ourselves.

That would be my preference too of course. As said in my previous post, seeing civ6 state at release, tuning the AI would be the only point to benefit from having an early access IMO, and as I don't see Firaxis putting more development resource into the AI (ie it improved a bit in the past 4 years, but what' the point of 4 years of early access ? just call "early access" the life span of the game, stopping when development ends), better let modders handle that.

 

[Zegangani]

That would be my preference too of course. As said in my previous post, seeing civ6 state at release, tuning the AI would be the only point to benefit from having an early access IMO, and as I don't see Firaxis putting more development resource into the AI (ie it improved a bit in the past 4 years, but what' the point of 4 years of early access ? just call "early access" the life span of the game, stopping when development ends), better let modders handle that.

Exactly. And if they won't do that for Civ 7 (releasing the Gameplay DLL - perhaps for the same reason why they're not doing it for Civ6), they could at least release the AI DLL, like Humankind apparently will. And if they expose enough functions/Methods to Lua (or any other scripting language they will choose for Civ7), we could perhaps still fix possible Bugs that are impossible to fix with Civ6's current modding possibilities.

From what I know, a Released DLL can be very advantageous for Modders, for many things: Understanding exactly how the Game is set up/works, knowing every function's/method's exact effects/consequences and variables needed, adding more functions* and Events, Fixing Bugs, improving AI, and most importantly, better performance (if things are modified directly in the DLL, rather than through scripting).
*Civ6's Modifier/requirement Systeme is just genius. If we could make custom modifiers/requirements with the DLL, then modding compatibilities won't be a big Issue for Modders.

But eventhough we don't have civ6's DLL we can still do a lot of things with its modding possibilities (although very restricted). So my Suggestion in the case we don't get the DLL for Civ7, is more exposed functions/methods/possibilities for Gameplay stuff and the AI DLL, so we can still modify things that are impossible for civ6 (AI, Diplomacy, Espionage, Trade ...etc).

 

[PiR]

We do have open betas. It's called release.

So sad and so true.

But I wouldn't pay for the released game.

There's a 20 year gap between 2 and 3. That's like resurrecting a dead franchise.

Calling it Baldur's Gate 3 is just marketing though? It will be nothing like 1 or 2, not even a continuous story from what I understood.

 

[Socrates99]

So sad and so true.

But I wouldn't pay for the released game.


Calling it Baldur's Gate 3 is just marketing though? It will be nothing like 1 or 2, not even a continuous story from what I understood.

Yeah, exactly what I mean. Giving early access gives old and new players a chance to see what's going on with the series. I mean, let's be honest the number of potential consumers who weren't born when Baldur's Gate 2 released is greater than the number of consumers who weren't born when Civ V was released, let alone VI. Baldur's Gate 3 may as well be HackNSlash 1 for all a huge portion of consumers are concerned. It's a huge difference from a franchise that hasn't been shelved for a couple decades.

TLDR, massive massive difference.

 

[jsciv69]

I would say it's time to turn the page. Time for a new installment with fresh ideas. Civ VI has gone as far as it will go. So I would hope to see more Civ VII threads. Let's get the conversation going. The more it's talked about. The more we give our ideas and wishes for a next installment, the more inspiration perhaps for a Civ VII. What keeps this franchise going is bringing fresh installments. So time to explore new territory. Time to plant a new garden. Time for Civilization VII.

 

[Zegangani]

The more it's talked about. The more we give our ideas and wishes for a next installment, the more inspiration perhaps for a Civ VII. What keeps this franchise going is bringing fresh installments. So time to explore new territory. Time to plant a new garden. Time for Civilization VII.

I think at this point there is little to no chance that FXS will get inspired by our Ideas for Civ VII. The developpement for Civ7 has most likely already started, and the engine might aswell be completed by now. Which should be built based on the Game's Design, so the only things that we could have some effect on, are the Systems' Values for balance. And thus, this Thread's Topic is more reasonable than one for Ideas for Civ7.

Ideas for Expansions of Civ7 are another thing though, but that wouldn't make sense as we don't even know how Civ7 is designed/works.