How can espionage be altered so it's not so annoying?

[Atwork]

I would say that the problem from micromanagement also comes with having to produce and utilize so very many spies. Multiple spies in each of your own cities. Spies sitting on strategic resources. Spies headed off to accomplish a mission. Then having to send spies off again if their mission is successful. If the mission was successful overseas, then the spy has to be reloaded on a ship to be shipped overseas again. Finally you get a spy into position and he's caught by the invisible enemy: dumb luck. And on and on espionage goes -- building and moving spies to infinity. Having espionage available is great, but this system is lame. This leads me back to the suggestions I made above. Less spies, not generic and base spies, and spies that become more powerful with success. And spies whose counter isn't chance only, but also user-controlled agents!

Anyways, Krikkitone is certainly right -- movement is a problem. I definitely think that auto-move actions for spies would be nice.

I disagree with Krikkitone that "better chance of success and faster movement" for spies should depend solely on tech. I don't think that this needs to be based on anything but the spy units individually. In other words, the system should allow spies to earn EP's for successful missions, which then could be spent on movement improvements, sight improvements, better evade chances, etc.

Also, having spies earn EP's would work well with Krikkitone's other excellent suggestion that it would be better if "'sabotage' just shuts the tile down for 4-6 turns" because in this way, spies could spend their EP's on upgrades that increase the length of time that sabotage is successful. Maybe at base sabotage is effective for 4-6 turns, but with successive upgrades the effect is increased by 25%, then 50%, and so on. A spy specialized for such missions might be able to disable resources for 6-9 turns, or even longer. Specialized spy units: much better!

Lastly, spies that successfully complete their mission should ALWAYZ stay embedded because that is as it should be. Spies stay embedded -- it makes sense. In the past, spies stayed embedded, but I think the change was made for balancing reasons. I argue that balance can be achieved in a way that isn't annoying and in a way that actually increases the level of strategy, interaction, and entertainment. How? One word: AGENTS!

 

[Dida]

A simple fix for this problem is to give us the option to turn espionage off. Espionage is sort of like unconventional warfare in CTP: non-critical to the overall gameplay, and totally annoying.

 

[Atwork]

Dida, negating espionage is not the same as improving espionage. Furthermore, many who think that the espionage system has extremely annoying elements and who also think that the system needs vast improving still believe that espionage is an interesting additional dimension of game play. As a person who utilizes espionage in his gameplay, I can say that espionage has become rather critical to my current strategy. However, none of this is to say that the current espionage system does not fall flat in lots of areas. Dida is right that espionage should be more than just a tool of unconventional warfare and the current system does allow for elements of this: intelligence gathering, tech stealing, culture spreading, etc. However, the current system needs to be more dynamic, compelling, and more well-rounded.

 

[Zhahz]

I have always disliked the new espionage system, since I don't really enjoy the micromanagement of espionage or have any desire to see espionage be such a large part of the game. The current espionage system goes against the normal level of abstraction found throughout the game.

I'd like the option to disable espionage entirely (or have the option for old crappy system or new crappier system - at least you could totally ignore the old crappy system).

 

[syndicatedragon]

I think the "passive" espionage aspects are fine. It's the active missions that seem out of whack and annoying more than fun. Especially the ones the AI likes to use (destroy improvement, I'm looking at you!). I'm thinking of modding my game by taking out most of the active missions and leaving only a few that make sense in a strategic sense (steal tech makes the most sense to me, I guess there are a few others that aren't so bad). Perhaps another good mod would be to only allow 3-5 spies at a time. Maybe the AI would be so spy-happy then.

 

[Atwork]

First of all, it is fairly easy to mod the game to disable espionage, but Zhahz and Dida: what if the system could be improved by: (1) having less micromanaging overall; (2) eliminating as much as possible all un-fun micromanagement; (3) greatly reducing the total number of spies; (4) reducing the demand of a player's attention to espionage in proportion to the demand for his attention on other areas of gameplay and (5) thereby bringing the footprint of espionage back into proportion with all the other various elements of the game. Would you still believe that espionage did not have a valid place in the game if these 5 objectives could be achieved?

I ask this only because I believe that espionage has a tremendous amount of potential reflective of the role it plays in the real world, but I also agree with you that the current system is whacked. I think that with espionage less can be more. I highlight the particular objectives above because these are the ends that I hope to achieve when I figure out how to implement my proposals from top of page 2 into an espionage mod.

 

[eriador]

I have enjoyed some of the espionage added into the game. Though it is true, it can be a little time consuming. The passive effects are pretty nice though. I play on lower levels so maybe leaving my slider at 20% is not enough on the highest levels to counter espionage attempts, but it works well for me so far. I see short bursts of spy activity in my borders every few turns but a majority of the time they are not often successful.

What I would like to see are some options for when you catch a spy. You should have varying responses to the other civ depending on how many times you have caught them. If I have caught spies repeatedly from one civ, I should be able to have some diplomatic options appear that I can choose. Maybe reputation hits on the other civ with respect to the other civs? Or being able to choose to have a sanction proposal appear in the Apostolic Palace or UN at the next session? Or even declare war with no reputation hit to me from the other civs other than possibly those allied with the offending civ. Something so there is a consequence to their repeated espionage attempts and being caught at it. I am not sure it would alter an AI's behavior of spy spamming, since it is just a program, but it might/could be programmed to weigh the odds of success and the possible outcomes of failure/success versus its current goals and leader's attributes.

 

[jpinard]

If you have a spy just sitting around in a city - does it provide more protection against incoming spies? Maybe I misinterpretted what someone was saying, but it seemed to me some people were keeping spies back to provide help.

Here's what I've done so far (not sure how it will work out yet).

* Doubled the cost of spies.
* Doubled the amount of time counterespionage is in effect for. (I might triple it).
* Doubled the cost of counterespionage to compesnsate for the above.
* Increased the cost of destroying an improvement by 10x.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't find espionage annoying at all.

I actually like it as it provides totally new, unique ways of playing the game.

I also think it is too early to talk about rebalancing, the patch is very new and we will have to see it in practice a bit more to decide.

 

[Roxlimn]

I don't set up my espionage slider at all and I don't get a lot of improvement destruction grief. I just build Courthouses, Jails, Intelligence, and Security Bureaus in all my cities, and I do fine.

And I usually designate a "Spy City," of course; a single city with lots of Spy Specialists and the Scotland Yard.

 

[jpinard]

I don't set up my espionage slider at all and I don't get a lot of improvement destruction grief. I just build Courthouses, Jails, Intelligence, and Security Bureaus in all my cities, and I do fine.

And I usually designate a "Spy City," of course; a single city with lots of Spy Specialists and the Scotland Yard.

As far as I konw those don't help you against losing a plot improvement. Also, when you're playing at a decent difficulty level, you have to "pick and chose" what you build. You can't just "Build everything".

 

[Roxlimn]

Honestly, I don't know, but it seems as if success rate is determined by relative amounts of Espionage Points, and I hardly ever bother with destroyed improvements. Most of the time, I simply get a string of messages informing me of unsuccessful enemy spying missions.

Of course, I may not be playing at a "decent" difficulty level. I find Prince and Monarch enjoyable enough, and I don't know whether the AI advantages of higher levels would be fun for me. If Emperor is the minimum of "decent" for you, then our experiences will differ.

While I don't "build everything" in every city, Courthouses and Jails in almost all, certainly, are quite profitable and also doable by Industrial Age. Once you transition past Factories, Agencies and Bureaus only take a few turns to churn out, well worth it for the Espionage points which you can, after all, always use to steal tech or sabotage or at least make informed decisions.

 

[Supr49er]

There should be a counter-spy unit to find and kill spies. Even civilizations you are friendly with or have a defensive pact will still poison your water and destroy buildings/improvements. Turning espionage off doesn't allow you to steal technology.

 

[jpinard]

Roxlimm, I only play at Noble, so you're decent level is better than mine

My last game was on a Mammoth map with 18 civs. Spying was pure insanity and with money being tight, there was no way to build tons of buildings for every city. Each city that couldn't afford espionage upgrades were of course annoyed all the time my those pesky spies.

And what's the benfit of this?

And I usually designate a "Spy City," of course; a single city with lots of Spy Specialists and the Scotland Yard.

Just curious, or if its just a central point of operation?

 

[jpinard]

How can I make it so spies cannot move through a space already occupied by an opposing unit (or a space occupied by another spy?)? I know it may seem weird, but I'd kind of like to set it up so you can build a "wall of units" to block off access to your lands if you want to invest that much in protection.

Also, where is the information for how much counterespionage a building provides? I can't seem to find a variable for it in the CIV4BuildingInfos.xml file. I want to give walls 5% counterespionage bonus.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There should be a counter-spy unit to find and kill spies. Even civilizations you are friendly with or have a defensive pact will still poison your water and destroy buildings/improvements. Turning espionage off doesn't allow you to steal technology.

There is... its called a spy

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I really am not a big fan of the espionage system in BTS. There are a number of ways to deal with it, but I am one of those who does not wish to "deal with it". There should definitely be some way to turn it off in a custom game. Honestly, I don't think it's all that broken, I don't believe it's unfair, but I do know that it annoys the heck outta me, and I'd much prefer BTS without it.

 

[jpinard]

There is... its called a spy

There is some debate, that spies sitting on a plot does nothing to help catch other spies. That the actual spy unit is ONLY offensive.

 

[weasel77066]

Frankly. the whole spy system before BTS was so horrible that Im not about to complain about it now.
We have a vast improvement over the vanilla spy system... Sure it not perfect. But its something that you can play with if youre interested. Otherwise, just run passively and enjoy the rest of the game.

Sometimes I just stick my weights for everyone the same and play without messing with it. Every few turns I check to make sure that they are doing the same (with point ratio)
Usually, if a rival civ is relatively neutral towards you, they will simply match your point ratio.
Some civs target you for espionage but yyou will discover this when their points start going high. Match accordingly.
I cant see how it is annoying or dreadfully time consuming, unless you are actually participating in in heavy offensive activity. If your offensive actions overburden the rest of your game, maybe thats a clue to start concentrating on more old school approaches to winning.

 

[jpinard]

Frankly. the whole spy system before BTS was so horrible that Im not about to complain about it now.
We have a vast improvement over the vanilla spy system... Sure it not perfect. But its something that you can play with if youre interested. Otherwise, just run passively and enjoy the rest of the game.

Sometimes I just stick my weights for everyone the same and play without messing with it. Every few turns I check to make sure that they are doing the same (with point ratio)
Usually, if a rival civ is relatively neutral towards you, they will simply match your point ratio.
Some civs target you for espionage but yyou will discover this when their points start going high. Match accordingly.
I cant see how it is annoying or dreadfully time consuming, unless you are actually participating in in heavy offensive activity. If your offensive actions overburden the rest of your game, maybe thats a clue to start concentrating on more old school approaches to winning.

Once again, maybe you should have played a game on Marathon and an Extra Huge map. Come back and say you can "just run Espionage passively". You can't.

You are correct in that we can alter it, and that's what we're working on - to alleviate the extra repetitive micromanegement.