How can espionage be altered so it's not so annoying?

its even less fun when your empire is huge and you cant bloody find the improvement that was destroyed in the first place.

If you open the event list, clicking on the event message will centre the screen where the event took place. This will help you find where improvements were destroyed, units were killed or spotted, newly discovered resources were found etc.



As for espionage system I really don't care much for it. Slider at 0% always, only put single spies in my cities when I get the time... I think the concept had some potential but as it is, I agree it's fairly mediocre and at times tedious.

I like the suggestion that spies should have been given some ability to actually stop enemy spying - not just mak it more expensive for the enemy (read: Counter-espionage).

I like how the passive missions work.
 
The espionage mechanics are fine in my opinion - it's just the AI that doesn't use it properly.

Especially the sabotage improvement option can make a lot of sense to deny your rivals access to oil - they'll be screwed without airplanes in any full-out war. Otherwise it simply doesn't make much sense and shouldn't be used.
If the AI knew how to use the most powerful of the Espionage features, tech stealing (which they are supposed to do in the next version), it'd be much more interesting.
 
Last night I was playing the 3.13 patch. The AI spy behavior is different: less poisoning, one tech theft, but still lots -- if not more -- destruction of improvements.

Easy fix, crank out a bunch of workers on auto, right? Yes, except that my warring neighbor kept scooping them up with mounted units. I can't believe how many workers I lost during that game. You just can't trust those automated workers to stay out of danger.
 
The current system would be vastly improved by implementing at least some of the changes below:

1. Espionage units should be divided between Intelligence Agents (“Agents”) and Spies. Agents thwart spies at home while spies wreak havoc in foreign lands.

2. Spies and agents should have unique abilities based on their unique roles.

3. More reflective of the combat system, spies and agents should accrue experience points based on their success.

4. Experience points would provide upgrades to spies and agents.

· Possible upgrades to spies: vision upgrades, movement upgrades, upgrades that increase the chances of successful missions, or upgrades that lead to the damage caused by a spy mission to last longer, etc.

· Possible upgrades for agents: visibility, movement, increased chance of detecting spy, increased chance of detaining spy, increased likelihood of obtaining by valuable information through interrogation, increased chance of destroying a spy, better chance of detecting nationality upon detecting a spy, etc.

5. Just as great general production is boosted by success in battle, points earned from successful espionage missions and successful counter-espionage missions would go toward creating great spies.

6. Great spies could be attached to an individual spy unit and gain 20 experience points. If you were lucky, you might hold on to a spy with many upgrades that in the end game has become extremely powerful. Like little ‘Bin-Ladens,’ if you will, capable of swaying global politics.

7. Great spies could also be attached to individual agents and would gain 20 exp. points, making them bona fide intelligence experts so powerful that it would be competent to stop a '911' from taking place within your borders.

8. Just as a player feels proud of his cavalry unit that has been with him since the days of chariots, which is lead by a great general with 10 upgrades, so to would the player come to feel proud of his elite spies and agents.

9. Freshly built spies without any upgrades would be invisible new agents. Subsequent upgrades would alter this. As the system goes, a veteran spy will be pretty damn hard to detect except by veteran agents. Similarly, A green spy is highly unlikely to go undetected by veteran agents.

10. Agents would attack spies just as any other unit attacks. The consequence would depend on chance, the upgrades of each unit, and possible other factors including buildings, etc.

11. One possible consequence of a successful attack from an agent would be that the agent detains the spy, at which point various options would become available to the player. Maybe the player lets the spy go to gain the good graces of your rival, maybe he interrogates to learn something about their rival, maybe he holds the spy hostage for monetary gain, or maybe he just destroys the spy and incurs a diplomatic penalty to try to provoke a war. Choices not passivity!

12. Spies could not attack agents, but they could evade, give false information, or simply disappear. Whether a spy gets detained would depend on chance, the agent’s abilities, the spy’s abilities, buildings, and EP’s for the spy's owner.

13. If an agent did detect a spy, the amount of info about the spy that became available to the agent's owner would again depend on chance, the agent’s abilities, the spy’s abilities, buildings, and EP’s. If the player moved to detain the spy, again those factors would be relevant. Upon a successful detention, the choices available to the player would again take these factors into account. It might be that a player simply has a very rudimentary espionage apparatus and can gain nothing from detaining the spy, in which case, the spy is simply destroyed or returned.

14. Espionage and intelligence would be distinctive. Therefore, it would be possible for a player to give a well developed intelligence apparatus, but not a well developed espionage apparatus, and vice versa. Quick example: one building would provide immediate experience points to new spys, another to new agents. This is similar to barracks v. stables.

15. EP’s would continue to be gained by budget spending and buildings.

16. Espionage and intelligence gathering would be much more closely related to diplomacy and foreign policy.

17. The numbers of spies and agents would be capped. 18 useful spies for 18 civs on the board should be sufficient. Hell, you could use all 18 on one civ if you really wanted. 1 good agent per 3 cities should be sufficient.

18. Emphasis would be on fewer overall spy units, but more options, control, power, and strategy in utilizing the available units.

19. In this system, successful spies stay embedded. None of this returning to capital nonsense. Also, agents could only leave their own borders via ship or open borders. Agents could not detain outside of friendly borders.

20. One of the best changes in this system is that a player would potentially SEE spies in his territory and would be able to track them to gain knowledge of the spy such as its nationality. Having agents running around taking notes on which nations are most active in his land, and adjusting his foreign policy accordingly, would be huge!
 
^ actually some ideas from that might work with the current system

When a spy is detected by another spy, the Detector gains Experience
When a spy successfully performs a mission, they gain Experience

Then you could use promotions to specialize them in particular jobs
counterespionage (the mission+detecting other spies)
movement
vision
saboteur (buildings, production, improvements, poison)
theft (technology, gold)
provacateur (change civics/religion, Revolt, Unhappiness)



One thing that would increase the fun factor without changing the Engine at all is to have an 'Infiltrate' function for spies..like the 'healing' function for units, the spy would just skip turns until they had the maximum bonus.

Also make the Worker AI more cautious (or at least have that as an option) no change to game balance, but definitely worthwhile when in hostilities.

As for game mechanics changes... perhaps have upgraded spy units later in the game that cost more, but can do more missions or do them more cost effectively.
 
The Mircro-management involved with espionage is a valid complaint, especially as there's no way to let the game just take care of that aspect on its own. Honestly though, I find it to be a fun and very useful tool in supporting my military and/or diplomatic efforts. And repairing improvements isn't that bad, as by mid game I usually have a group of surplus workers not doing much as I'll have already improved most of my land.

What?!! This sounds like the ol pollution partys aka [c3c]'s smack dat mole' is back just in time for the last X pak! :lol:

You seriously mean they brought back this flaw all the civ4 fans complained about? Oh Thats savage game killer man.

Hey least you can mod it away right? that what I do with civ3's puke piles. Still what a bitc$ lol
 
Yeah, the 'damage improvement' might have been better if it was "can't work tile or get resources from it" for ~4-6 turns (depending on balance) The main use really is supposed to be strategic resources.

probably just encourage the AI to focus on buildings rather than non-strategic improvements
 
Easy fix, crank out a bunch of workers on auto, right? Yes, except that my warring neighbor kept scooping them up with mounted units. I can't believe how many workers I lost during that game. You just can't trust those automated workers to stay out of danger.

Group your workers with military units and give the combined group the work orders. That way the worker will be protected.
 
If you catch a spy in the act of destroying an improvement it should be considered an act of war, or at the very least a dishonourable act and there should be no diplo penalty from other civs for then declaring war on the offending civ.

I dislike how AIs can be anonymously antagonistic through the use of spies with no real incentive to cease doing so. I would go so far as to say it's against the spirit of the game...
 
I agree that the Whack-a-mole of rebuilding improvements is very annoying. One fact I learned from looking in the SDK is that your chance of capture depends on the LIFETIME espionage ratio with the attacker, not the current ratio.

So if you are playing OCC, and the current ratio is 500/11000 because the AI has sent a gazillion spies into your territory, you don't actually have much advantage in counterespionage, because the AI has generated -and spent - a lot more points than you have.

The solution in this case is to make counterespionage a bit more effective. I would recommend doubling the following in GlobalDefines.xml
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_SPENDING_MAX (to 50)
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERSPY (to 30)
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERESPIONAGE_MISSION (to 40)

If both sides have equal lifetime espionage points, that will give each spy about a 55% chance to catch a rival on her plot each turn. It jumps to 95% if you have an active counterespionage mission against the attacker. As the lifetime ratio tilts in favor of you or the attacker, the odds change accordingly.

You can obviously tweak the percentages to whatever you think works best. But I find that this plays well in OCC. When you run a counter espionage mission, you basically completely shut down the enemy's spies. And the rest of the time, you'll usually catch them if you have 2+ spies on the target tile.

Note that these changes also make your spies more likely to get caught when they venture into enemy territory!
 
Espionage hasn't caused me any major harm since I can usually keep up with the AI in espionage spending just by build all the right buildings.

I get to see their cities an all but it's still annoying to have unhealthiness and improvements in some obscure part of your empire fixed. Which doesn't give this feature much credit.

And while I never put the espionage bar up more than 10% I saw that the AI sometimes spends more on it than science which is just nuts in a game where I'm winning by outteching them, I can't help not when they spend 40% and I spend 80% on science.

Besides would espionage make to the top three if you'd have bars to control state expense.
 
As was mentioned earlier, the irony of espionage in BtS - is it totally flies in the face of what Soren tried to do in Civ IV. Get rid of the annoying stuff.

Play an Epic or longer game, on a huge map with 18 civs - and it's just terrible. If you have a specific plan for your land, there are several big problems that suck the fun out of the game:

#1 - The AI will not always replace the destroyed improvement with the same thing that was there before (with automated workers). Increases micromanagement. Think it's not bad? What about when you have 30 cities?


#2 - When the improvement is destroyed and rebuilt, the city workers reset.
Once again, more micromagement as you have to go back and change the type of great people (scientists, priests, food) etc.

#3 - In a game with 18 civs, it's impossible to keep track of who you you have current counterespionage against (was this changed in the patch)? And chances are, you're going to have to send out another spy somewhere every 2 turns. Annoying as hell. After you've sent out a spy for the quadrillonth time you just want to kill them all instead.

There are some aspects of espionage that are pretty cool, but the implementation of many "active" missions isn't good. In fact, it would have been better to have almost all the missions be passive.

The sad thing is, crippling an enemy's oil supply by destroying their oil derricks is a cool idea. But it doesn't work on two levels...

* The AI can rebuild it instantly. So if you want to cripple it for more than a turn or two, you need to invade.

* Scrolling all over a huge map to find all the oil derricks is daunting. There should be a filter of resources so you can just see one or two on the world map.

---------------------

So it's an ironic twist. The places you would want to use espionage are hard to find and chances of success in this technique (on huge maps) becomes pointless when you look at the amount of time the player has to invest to accomplish his goal. Edit the xml for more success and you have more annoyance due to little things being burned up on your own plots.
 
Krikkitone, we're on the same page. I wish I knew how to mod this stuff -- I plan on taking the time to learn over Christmas break. Also, I agree with jpinard that: "...espionage in BtS...flies in the face of what Soren tried to do in Civ IV...." This current system of espionage is simply generic and includes too much repetitious micromanagement and passivity, which are the elements of game play that Soren wanted to remove. Also, one of the basic principles of game design according to Soren is to the affect that a player's time is valuable and therefore repetitious tasks are disfavored. I think that a mod utilizing the elements I outlined above would take the current system in a direction more consistent with the desires of Soren and the Civ community.
 
I think its alright.

Latest game I was repeatadly destroying a quarry of stone for Sitting Bull so he couldnt complete Hanging Gardens before me (we were the only ones with Mathematics).

There might be some issues with espionage and I havent played the latest patch too much to notice any significant differences yet but hopefully some of the annoyence have been tweaked. Only real annoying thing is when your at war and builing swordsmen and ur Ironmine gets destroyed, all ur hammers just vanish. Even tho my stack of workers rebuild within 4-5 turns, couldnt they make it so that the creation just stays on pause? Or atleast give me a refund in gold as like with wonders.
 
I agree that the Whack-a-mole of rebuilding improvements is very annoying. One fact I learned from looking in the SDK is that your chance of capture depends on the LIFETIME espionage ratio with the attacker, not the current ratio.

So if you are playing OCC, and the current ratio is 500/11000 because the AI has sent a gazillion spies into your territory, you don't actually have much advantage in counterespionage, because the AI has generated -and spent - a lot more points than you have.

The solution in this case is to make counterespionage a bit more effective. I would recommend doubling the following in GlobalDefines.xml
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_SPENDING_MAX (to 50)
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERSPY (to 30)
- ESPIONAGE_INTERCEPT_COUNTERESPIONAGE_MISSION (to 40)

If both sides have equal lifetime espionage points, that will give each spy about a 55% chance to catch a rival on her plot each turn. It jumps to 95% if you have an active counterespionage mission against the attacker. As the lifetime ratio tilts in favor of you or the attacker, the odds change accordingly.

You can obviously tweak the percentages to whatever you think works best. But I find that this plays well in OCC. When you run a counter espionage mission, you basically completely shut down the enemy's spies. And the rest of the time, you'll usually catch them if you have 2+ spies on the target tile.

Note that these changes also make your spies more likely to get caught when they venture into enemy territory!

this is the single stupidest bit of programming I have seen with CIV to date. who the hell thought the lifetime ratio was a good basis for the success? One of the silver linings of espionage points being spent against you was that you risked an attack later rather than sooner. I dont even care about the implications of change on this.
 
just give spies a movement of 2 while walls have espionage bonus of 10 percent. cuts down the mm og active espionage and slowing ai. btw, you should invest eps against your neighbor and plant counterspies while sometimes paying for extra counter. problem solved.
 
Seasnake, I agree that spies should move two and certainly various buildings could be added or tweaked to influence espionage success/failure amongst other things. However, your other offerings are merely the necessary strategies called for by the current espionage system. That said, the strategies that you offer are helpful in the current system. But, what seems to be a consensus in this thread is that more substantial changes to the system are needed. Certainly playing within the system is possible, but what the system needs is an overhaul to address the sorts of issues being addressed here.
 
Well it seems that the Micro management comes from

1. The problem of moving spies (for offense)
2. The problem of spies attacking improvements

I'd say for non gameplay concepts
#1 can be partly solved with an ability to
A. mouse over a spy and see what its 'stationary' bonus is
B. an 'Infiltrate' function (basically wait until you get the full infiltrate function)
so you can tell a spy to move to the location, and shift-'Infiltrate' and then when spies are available you they are ready to go

#2 have a function where you can click on a tile and select an improvement for auto workers to do on that tile (without sending specific workers to specific tiles.. this would be good for a LOT of things)


For gamebalance changing improvements to micromanagement
#1
A. a chance of the spy staying put after a mission
B. Higher Tech, More Expensive spies with a higher chance of success and faster movement (one at Military Science+Printing Press, and another at Computers+Facism)

#2
'sabotage' just shuts the tile down for 4-6 turns




I would give walls the Espionage defense bonus of 10% and make all the ratios dependent on CURRENT espionage ratios
 
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