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How civilizations are doing in real world now

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by PrideDefiler, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    This is incorrect, people that act immoral after losing faith in whatever god they believed in, were never moral beings in the first place. There is no practical difference between morals of divine origin and those created by man.

    It is, however, obviously true that from a religious perspective, those people will seem less moral, because they no longer do what that religion prescribes as being "good".


    On another note: I don't think the amount spent on research is a good indication of technological development of a country.
     
  2. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    Huh? Japan uses tanks, fighters, destroyers, infantry men, and hell, even marines. They don't use Samurais anymore in war
     
  3. deity12

    deity12 Chieftain

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    Hah, some things are gonna a be damn challenging. Have fun when you get to Polynesia :lol:.
     
  4. George Abitbol

    George Abitbol Prince

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    Wish Lorraine
    Maybe they consider that 10 nuclear aircraft carriers are not enough. We have only one (the only nuc aircraft carrier outside USA, and she doesn't even work) and it's a financial nightmare.

    Can somebody explain me what is a "flawed democracy"? As a French I'm curious about it...
     
  5. Mrdarklight

    Mrdarklight Warlord

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    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    I want to see the Huns!
     
  6. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Thanks - that's extremely interesting. I can certainly recognise everything the piece says about the UK (which, as a British publication, it naturally focuses heavily on), particularly modern Britain's scepticism towards political authority. That was another big culture shock in the US - the way this society treats its head of state with a reverence most monarchs and dictators can only dream of, all the more pronounced on the nominally anti-government right wing (which also lauds such state institutions as the military and the US Constitution); it's as far removed from British affection for an affable and stately old lady as you can get, let alone our universal distrust of the elected political leaders. A President is considered bad in the US if (like GW Bush at the end of his second term) they have popularity in the 30-40% range, not the 10% or so range suggested as standard for the UK's trust in politicians generally. In the US the President might as well claim the divine right of kings, while in the UK the Queen is an institution in the same way as John Cleese, a popular celebrity rather than anyone fundamentally different from the rest of the people.

    I believe the Japanese Imperial religion was something closer to what Total War calls "Shinto-Buddhism" - it's a label made up for the game, but the religion adopted was essentially Buddhism with Shinto elements. Buddhism is certainly to a large extent an organised religion, with numerous sects having religious heads, several historical Buddhist theocracies and state religions, and indeed major theological traditions that have a similar history of tension and conflict to Reformation Christianity and the Sunni-Shia division (to some degree less violent, but certainly not exclusively so - though documentation is sparse from that period, Cambodia appears to have been the focal area of a religious war between Theravada and Mayahana sects about a millennium ago, if I recall my reading of Cambodia's history). Japan itself had plenty of violent internal strife between different local forms of Buddhism, such as the Ikko-Ikki vs. the then-new Imperial religion.

    In certain elements of doctrine, but then a Christian or Muslim fundamentalist will find most moderates of their religions wanting in exactly the same way. Most basic religious tenets are common to the majority of religions and to human instincts generally, and for good reason. A religion whose core teachings conflict drastically with what people are naturally primed to accept is not going to secure many followers. The 'morality' of religion is defined by humans' basic moral instincts, human morality isn't defined by religion.

    The index is a 1-10 scale; "flawed democracy" is between 6 and 8 on the scale (8-10 is "full democracy"). It's got a very large number of components in several general headings described in detail in the link provided. The actual functioning of the political process is only part of it; other things include general engagement in the democratic process (both through actively voting in elections and public perception of politicians), which is generally particularly low in Western Europe and getting worse, corruption (perceived to be on the rise), whether a system is genuinely multipartite (compared with, say, the British or American systems with fully free and mostly fair elections but only two viable parties) - I believe in this regard France is closer to a bipartite system than many European democracies, and also such things as equal representation of specific groups of people (such as women) in political positions (traditionally low in Western Europe).

    All the major Western European governments score much the same for the electoral process, and France is higher than some for public engagement with politics, but it has (surprisingly) got a comparatively low civil liberties score compared with Britain or Germany (equal to the United States, while the other two European leaders have higher values - much higher in the case of Germany) and a low score for political culture (which mostly seems to describe support for authoritarianism among the general public - suggesting that the French are by some way more tolerant of strong, authoritarian leaders than other major Western powers.
     
  7. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    Representing what? Hungary? Ukraine? Kazakhstan?
     
  8. liltrogdor

    liltrogdor Chieftain

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    Nirvana
    Good job! I find this very interesting. I hope you will do the rest of the civs in the game.
     
  9. digrosz

    digrosz Dirty Frank

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    The Netherlands
    Would be interesting to see Mongolia now.... More than half the population there is still nomad I think.
     
  10. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    But do you represent them as just the modern country of Mongolia, or include Inner Mongolia and other territories the Mongols were drawn from? The country's named after the ethnic group, not a particular historical Mongol state (which was much more widespread).
     
  11. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    Wasn't Mongolia wiped off the map twice? One during the Yuan uprising and the other during the Russian Empire. Correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  12. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    Japan doesn't have marines :)

    After the WWII defeat Japan was half-forced by the Allied Forces to adopt the current *peace constitution* which bans Japan to possess *Armed forces*.

    Yes, Japan has military but strictly speaking it's a *self-defense* force and it's managed by government branch one level lower than *ministry* (equivalent of the U.S. department)

    Also Japan is devoid of any offensive military capability - no landing ships, no marines(for landing on foreign soil), no long-range cruise or ballistic missiles, much smaller army than navy ect... They are only allowed to *defend*.

    That's why it's ranked below all of its neighbors except for impoverished and outdated North Korean military on Global firepower index:)

    Russia - 2nd
    China - 3rd
    South Korea - 8th
    Japan - 17th
    North Korea - 29th


    However, the current right-wing nationalist government is pushing for change of constitution to allow Japan to have proper armed forces or at least change the interpretation of current constitution if, the referendum fails. :rolleyes:

    Japan's neighbors are obviously not happy about this :) - just imagine how other European nations would feel if Germany is out of NATO and started to change constitution so they can declare war on their own again :D


    http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/...ounces-push-to-change-the-peace-constitution/

    https://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/07/21-2


    Yes, the general theme of the 2012 report was about the deteriorating democracy in the West, especially in US and UK :)




    Yep, Shinto isn't really a proper organized religion - I don't know why Civ 5 included it as one the major religious symbols in the game, in reality it's more of a pantheon barely 3% share even in Japan, virtually unknown outside Japan :D

    Oh, one gimmick of Imperial Shinto was that the Japanese emperor was officially a *living god* during Imperial age :) and this status was dropped after they surrendered in Pacific War :D
    Allied forces actually wanted to prosecute Japanese emperor for war crimes, but they compromised this for smoother occupation of Japan and unconditional surrender in other areas. :rolleyes:


    Yes, and the most variations of morality come from geography - surrounding environment or political reasoning.

    Examples;

    In Middle East, water is scares and more valuable than other regions thus, pigs are are considered *dirty and immoral* as they naturally defecate in water source and nest there :D
    This obviously made into Judaism and Islam :)

    Among nomadic central Asian people where the population is small and sparsely scattered, it was not at all immoral to marry the wife of your dead family members - brother, cousin or even your son!
    So many able and wealthy men were encouraged to take widowed women of his extended family as second or third wife.
    This was (and even now to certain extent) actually very important and useful tradition - widowed women and their children were very likely to die without protection of someone with secure assets (livestock) in nomadic lifestyle.

    In East Asia, stealing waterway was considered highly immoral as they do wet farming for rice paddies.

    In India, beef was banned for political reason first(ruling caste wanted to preserve them for farming purpose) then made into religion later.

    :D
     
  13. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    Hopefully this isn't controversial, but I decided to do England => modern UK even though it includes Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Mainly because UN recognizes UK not England, as a sovereign state and I can only find national data of UK not England.

    However I will do an *honorable mention* of possible Scottish independence referendum in 2014 and post some possible changes to data if Scotland secedes from UK. -see below-




    England in Civilization V



    United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (Unite Kingdom)

    Capital :c5capital:
    London

    Population :c5citizen:
    63,181,775 (22nd)

    Land :c5moves:
    243,610 km2 (80th)



    Economy

    GDP :c5gold:
    PPP: $2.316 trillion (8th)
    Nominal: $2.434 trillion (6th)


    GDP per capita
    PPP: $36,941 (22nd)
    Nominal: $38,589 (23rd)


    Agriculture :c5food:
    0.7% of GDP

    Manufacturing :c5production:
    21.1% of GDP

    Trade :c5trade:
    Exports: $481 billion (10th)
    Imports: $646 billion (6th)
    Balance: -$165 billion

    Public debt :c5citystate:
    $1.83 trillion
    75.4% of GDP

    Foreign reserves
    $95.54 billion

    Economic aid
    $13.74 billion donor (DAC member)



    Military

    Firepower :c5war:
    Global firepower index: 0.5185 (5th)

    Military expenditure :c5strength:
    PPP: $57.5 billion (6th)
    Nominal: $60.8 billion (4th)
    2.5% of GDP​



    Society

    Human Development Index :c5happy:
    0.875 (26th) very high

    Income Inequality :c5angry:
    Gini Index: 34.0 medium low

    Democracy Index :c5goldenage:
    8.21 (16th) Full democracy

    Research & Developments spending :c5science:
    $38.4 billion (PPP) (7th)
    1.7% of GDP (PPP)

    Religion :c5faith:
    Christianity: 59.4%
    No Religion: 24.7%
    Not stated: 7.2%
    Islam: 5.0%
    Hinduism: 1.5%
    Sikhism: 0.8%
    Judaism: 0.5%
    Buddhism: 0.5%
    Other Religion: 0.4%​



    * % of GDP numbers may vary as each figures are from different years between 2010-2012


    .



    :confused: What if Scotland leaves the union? :confused:



    *Scotland will be holding a referendum to decide Scottish independence in 2014.

    Here's brief outlook of what will happen to UK's national data.

    Disclaimer: These changes are based on simple calculations. No secondary or tertiary effects of actual secession was taken into account.



    Brief glance at UK after Scottish independence

    Population :c5citizen:
    UK: 63,181,775 (22nd) - Scotland: 5,313,600 (116th) = 57,868,175 (23rd)

    Land :c5moves:
    UK: 243,610 km2 (80th) - Scotland: 78,387 km2 (118th) = 165,223 km2 (92nd)

    GDP :c5gold:
    UK nominal: $2.434 trillion (6th) - Scotland nominal: $235.000 billion (44th) = $2.199 trillion (7th)

    GDP per capita
    UK nominal: $38,589 (23rd)
    Scotland nominal: $44,378 (18th)
    UK without Scotland nominal: $38,000 (24th)

    Firepower :c5war:
    Global firepower index: ???
    It will be negatively effected by the loss of;
    Land and manpower
    Manufacturing facility - Scotland is UK's manufacturing core
    Nuclear weapon storage in Scotland - increased cost for Vanguard program
    North Sea oil - 98% of oil is in Scottish waters​

    *For more info on calculation criteria, please refer to Global Firepower Index

    Military expenditure :c5strength:
    UK nominal: $60.8 billion (4th) - Scotland nominal: $5.1 billion (36th) = $55.7 (8th)


    .
     
  14. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    There are six Celtic nations as recognised by the Celtic League;

    Ireland (Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland)
    Scotland
    Isle of Man
    Wales
    Cornwall
    Brittany

    *Well there seems to be seven to me :p

    However, only one of them is a fully recognized sovereign nation with a full UN membership - Republic of Ireland.




    Celts in Civilization V



    Republic of Ireland [√Čire] (Ireland)

    Capital :c5capital:
    Dublin

    Population :c5citizen:
    4,588,252 (121st)

    Land :c5moves:
    70,273 km2 (120th)



    Economy

    GDP :c5gold:
    PPP: $192.223 billion (55th)
    Nominal: $210.416 billion (47th)


    GDP per capita
    PPP: $41,921 (14th)
    Nominal: $45,888 (16th)


    Agriculture :c5food:
    2.0% of GDP

    Manufacturing :c5production:
    29.0% of GDP

    Trade :c5trade:
    Exports: $113.6 billion (34th)
    Imports: $63.1 billion
    Balance: $50.5 billion

    Public debt :c5citystate:
    $248 billion
    118% of GDP

    Foreign reserves
    $1.703 billion

    Economic aid
    $904 million donor (DAC member)
    $895 million recipient of agricultural aid​


    Military

    Firepower :c5war:
    Global firepower index: not calculated / not ranked

    *For more info on calculation criteria, please refer to Global Firepower Index

    Military expenditure :c5strength:
    Nominal: $1.35 billion (62nd)
    0.6% of GDP​



    Society

    Human Development Index :c5happy:
    0.916 (7th) very high

    Income Inequality :c5angry:
    Gini Index: 29.8 low

    Democracy Index :c5goldenage:
    8.65 (13th) Full democracy

    Research & Developments spending :c5science:
    $2.6 billion (PPP) (36th)
    1.4% of GDP (PPP)

    Religion :c5faith:
    Roman Catholicism: 84.2%
    No Religion: 6.0%
    Church of Ireland: 2.8%
    Other Christianities: 2.5%
    Islam: 1.1%
    Orthodoxy: 1%
    Undeclared: 1.6%
    Other Religions: 0.8%​



    * % of GDP numbers may vary as each figures are from different years between 2010-2012


    .
     
  15. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    This is why when it builds new aircraft carriers it has to call them "destroyers". Not to mention what happened the last time Japan unveiled the largest battleships ever built...

    A rationale I've heard elsewhere strikes me as more plausible (particularly as historically Israel particularly, where the injunction began, was somewhat more fertile than it is now): pork is the most likely of the widely-consumed meats to carry lethal pathogens if not properly cooked, making it safer to avoid it altogether where there are alternatives. It's probably related to the traditions of kosher and halal, which emphasise not just what can and can't be eaten, but how it should be prepared.
     
  16. Stellarnight

    Stellarnight Warlord

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    Singapore
    I just want to chirp in that Shinto is not a religion but more like a tradition or custom. It is pretty hard to categorise Shinto because it is so ambigious. I am also pretty sure that more than 3% of Japanese follow Shinto. Like my Japanese Prof said, Japanese in general are Shinto when they were born, marry in a Christian Church and die with Buddhist rites. Religion there is a syncretic mix.

    Also the Japanese Emperor has always been treated as god incarnate until the end of WWII.

    Anyway, i really like the idea of this! Reminds me of that other topic on 2k forums with real life news in Civ V format.

    How would you do Korea? Like the way you dealt with PRC and ROC?
     
  17. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    Yes, very thinly veiled attempt to sneakily increase it's offensive capabilities, but Japan's neighbors are not idiots :D


    .


    Of course, I've heard about that too.

    I wonder if there's any other cultures avoid pork.



    .




    Yep, it's like Confucius in Korea... While so many Koreans use it as moral guide in life, they don't consider themselves *Confucius* followers in religious survey :D

    I bet the relationship between Japanese and Shinto is similar :)

    .
    I have already done Korea. It's on page 1 - post #4 between Egypt and Greece.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12693518&postcount=4

    .

    PS. Does anyone know how to do indexing within a thread?
     
  18. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    6,450
    When you're done, you (or someone with the graphics skills) should do a F9 demographics screen that converts this info to Civ format. First and last would be easy. The averages would require another bit of work on the material you're providing here, but wouldn't be terribly hard. How is our game of civ going?
     
  19. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Nov 20, 2011
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    It's defensive as long as it's politically inconvenient for the West to admit the alternative (in this case that a key ally is in violation of a law the West effectively imposed but now wishes it hadn't) - it's not an aircraft carrier in much the same way the Egyptian military takeover isn't a coup.
     
  20. Musketeer935

    Musketeer935 AoEIII Fan

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    67
    @OP:
    You should calculate some type of Civ-esque overall score for each civ.
     

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