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How civilizations are doing in real world now

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by PrideDefiler, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    I've been putting off Denmark and Sweden because I don't know whether I should treat them like I did Korea and China

    Should I do Denmark => Denmark / Norway and Sweden => Sweden / Finland?

    Or just do one nation each?

    I'm not sure how Norwegians and Finnish would feel about being regarded as one of the *successor states* of Danish and Swedish civilization :D
     
  2. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    Well, in the Finnish case it is more or less accurate...

    I'd go with just the individual named states - you get into all sorts of weirdness if you try to represent every nation that has named cities in the city list (Siam would then have to incorporate Laos and Myanmar, for instance), and the Norway and Finland connections are only otherwise referenced by units that were part of Danish and Swedish armies respectively.
     
  3. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    I'm still confused how you have to debate this, but are confident enough to deem Mexico an Aztec successor as your 2nd go at it.

    What is your actual justification for that? Only 13% of the population is indigenous, and less than half of that is Nahua (the broad group of peoples of which the Mexica (Aztecs) are just 1). That means that significantly less than 6% of the population can claim to be "Aztec". Mexico is AT LEAST 94% "not-Aztec" A larger portion of the population is of mixed heritage indigenous and european. However, Mexico on the whole places higher value on lighter, European skin. It is a post-colonial society, and very clearly based on Spanish culture with slight influences from the indigenous cultures that existed before it.

    The Aztecs were conquered. They are no longer a civ in reality civ. They have lost their capital and all their cities. Mohc-xi-cuali! Ahcincimo mo qui tia.... etc. For a correct entry it should say they were knocked out of the game by the Spanish empire.
     
  4. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    13 percent only? Are the rest just ambiguously brown or forgotten their heritage. I know that tons of Northern Mexican Amerindian groups vanished without leaving a trance of their languages. Zacatecs, Guachichiles, Cazcans, and so on
     
  5. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    According to Wikipedia's article on the demographics of Mexico, 20% are "Amerindian", most presumably indigenous to Mexico rather than immigrant, with 60% sharing native and Spanish ethnicity - and so the extent to which they can be classed as indigenous is ambiguous.

    As to the Aztecs, they're unlikely ever to have formed a substantial population base. They had three cities, all of them less than three centuries old by the time of the Conquest. Mexico likely has a larger Maya population than a Nahua one.
     
  6. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    The large proportion of Mexicans are "mestizo", meaning of spanish and indigenous heritage. There is also a large group of "white mexicans". Of course, Mediterranean heritage is just ambiguously brown enough to be perceived as mestizo too, so i take the proportion of indigenous heritage in the mestizo population with a pinch of salt. The mestizo mexicans appear to suffer from racial inferiority at the moment; whiter mexicans apparently tend to be seen as superior. I highlight this because it just doesn't make sense for a successor state of the Aztecs to discriminate against ethnically Aztec people. Regardless of the depth of truth in this statement, mestizo's are deeply european in their cultural roots. Even if they had a very strong indigenous heritage, they are very clearly absorbed into the europeanised modern mexico now. It has nothing to do with the aztec empire that predated it, their culture, political systems, economy, religion and philosophy have been completely changed.

    The large proportion of indigenous people also died after initial contact. Estimates suggest that up to 90% of the population of the americas died from the introduction of european diseases.

    Additionally, whilst it occupies the majority of the area the Aztec had within their empire, and the capital is constructed over the old Aztec capital, Modern mexico encompasses a huge area and a great number of indigenous groups. If we're calling is the Aztec successor state we've also got to call it the Tlaxcala successor state, despite the Tlaxcala and Aztecs being contemporaries and basically sworn enemies.

    Basically, it is just plain wrong to describe Mexico as a successor state of the Aztec empire.

    If we take the Aztecs to be the Mexica (which really we should, especially if we talk Alexander as representative of the Greeks as precedent), then they had far more than 3 cities, the Mexica centred in Tenochtitlan formed an alliance with two other Mexica city states to become the "Aztecs" and the dominant Mexica force in the valley of Mexico. Tenochtitlan was a huge city just on its own however, don't be fooled into thinking they had a low population. The city itself was populated only by nobles and individuals of high standing. Beyond the city boundaries there was huge urban sprawl where the more "common" folk lived.
     
  7. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    @True Candyman

    I was going for Aztecs => Mexico based on geography, populace, and local population's heritage claim. :)
     
  8. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    Next up is Indonesia.

    A giant of Southeast Asia with a huge population & growth potentials :)







    Indonesia in Civilization V

    Republic of Indonesia [Republik Indonesia] (Indonesia)

    Capital :c5capital:
    Jakarta

    Population :c5citizen:
    237,424,363 (4th)

    Land :c5moves:
    1,904,569 km2 (15th)



    Economy

    GDP :c5gold:
    PPP: $1.212 trillion (15th)
    Nominal: $878.2 billion (16th)


    GDP per capita
    PPP: $4,977 (125th)
    Nominal: $3,557 (116th)


    Agriculture :c5food:
    38.3% of GDP

    Manufacturing :c5production:
    12.8% GDP

    Trade :c5trade:
    Exports: $187.7 billion (26th)
    Imports: $178.5 billion (26th)
    Balance: $9.2 billion

    Public debt :c5citystate:
    $209 billion
    23.9% of GDP

    Foreign reserves
    $110.3 billion

    Economic aid
    $2.524 billion recipient


    Military

    Firepower :c5war:
    Global firepower index: 0.7614 (15th)

    Military expenditure :c5strength:
    Nominal: $6.87 billion (29th)
    0.7% of GDP​



    Society

    Human Development Index :c5happy:
    0.629 (121st) medium

    Income Inequality :c5angry:
    Gini Index: 35.7 medium

    Democracy Index :c5goldenage:
    6.76 (53rd) Flawed democracy

    Research & Developments spending :c5science:
    $0.72 billion (PPP) (49th)
    0.07% of GDP (PPP)

    Religion :c5faith:
    Islam: 87.18%
    Protestantism: 6.96%
    Catholicism: 2.91%
    Hinduism: 1.69%
    Buddhism: 0.72%
    Others: 0.56%​



    * % of GDP numbers may vary as each figures are from different years between 2010-2012


    .
     
  9. digrosz

    digrosz Dirty Frank

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    Actually surprised Islam is so big in Indonesia. And why is their Happiness (Human development Index) so low? They should be fine with those extra luxuries :lol:
     
  10. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    How are you gonna do the Shoshone or Huns?

    Yeah, but a majority of them don't speak Javanese. The Javanese speakers are what's making the country worse cause they think the Dutch ruins everything so they hit on the Indonesian speakers
     
  11. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    None of those would stand up in an academic discussion, but i know this is all for fun in the end so i'm gunna stop being "that guy" :p

    It's nice to know where your justification comes from is all, so i appreciate the shout out :goodjob:

    Any ideas on how you're gunna work in the Maya and Shoshone into that? I'm gunna guess you'll make the Iroquois either New York State or Canada?
     
  12. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    Indonesia is actually the country with a single largest Muslim population in the world.

    It's counter intuitive to think so, but it's actually because Indonesia has world's fourth largest population - so 100% of Saudi Arabia is much smaller than 87.18% of Indonesia


    I might just add Shoshone to already existing U.S. page.

    Shoshone+America => The U.S. maybe?

    Shoshones don't really have modern successor state - some might claim it but none of them are independent sovereign state. :(

    As for the Huns I have no idea at the moment :crazyeye:


    Yeah I'm not giving an academical argument why Mexico is the successor of the Aztecs. :p

    I was simply trying to find anything even remotely closest to it. :lol:

    Shoshones don't even have such distantly linked descendants with sovereign power today...

    As for the Iroquois, I'm not sure at this moment...

    Even at the peak, their sphere of influence seems to be within modern U.S. border so I'm not sure whether I can do Iroquois => Canada :confused:
     
  13. Moai_Spammer

    Moai_Spammer Nihilandros

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    the huns can be hungary :D
     
  14. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Without sovereign successor:

    Shoshone
    Iroquois
    Huns
    Venice
    ?Polynesians? would have to check if there are independent nations in that area. (as opposed to territories of others)
     
  15. True_Candyman

    True_Candyman Emperor

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    There are 4 polynesian nations; Samoa, Tonga, Tuvalu and New Zealand. Plus a load of territories. There are plenty of figures available to make it viable to cover the whole of the polynesian triangle rather than say, just new zealand too.
     
  16. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    Iroquois - Canada??????????????????????????????????
    Shoshone - non-existence????????????????????
    Venice - Venice (the city itself)???????????????????????
     
  17. PhilBowles

    PhilBowles Deity

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    It's well-known as the world's largest Islamic country, so this shouldn't surprise at all. The Middle East gets a lot of attention because of its strategic importance and because headline-grabbing, extremist forms of Islam mostly appear to arise there while the majority of the Islamic world (Indonesia, Malaysia and a large minority on the Indian subcontinent) is relatively moderate, but Arabs and Iranians form a distinct minority of Muslims.
     
  18. otaman1

    otaman1 Prince

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    No. The Middle East (today) is known for wars and oils
     
  19. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Venice is not Sovereign.

    Canada is not Iroquois. (that's like saying the US is Shoshone)
     
  20. PrideDefiler

    PrideDefiler Chieftain

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    You all heard the mod,

    Don't forget to keep the topic of discussion related to Civ5 :)
     

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