How different is Mandarin? - All fear English Domination *Rawr*

[Elta]

This topic hits on quite a few languages so I hope this makes sense *warning*


I was wondering if anyone who knows Mandarin and any of the following languages German,Spanish,English,Portuguse could help me out.

when you look up the Stats on Mandarin on wiki you get this - Mandarin: 672 million native speakers: then they tac on these numbers -

Wu: 87 million (2004 CIA)
Cantonese: 54.8 million (2005? [unsourced])
Southern Min/Taiwanese: 46 million (1984)
Jin: 45 million (1984)
Xiang: 36 million (1984)
Hakka: 30 million (1984)
Gan: 21 million (1984)
Northern Min: 10.3 million (1984)
Eastern Min: 9.1 million (2000 WCD)
Hui: 3.2 million
Pu-Xian Min: 2.6 million (2000 WCD).

Since they are dialects - they are "some what" intelligable

I've read alot of stuff on it but, I still can't get a good grasp of how simmalar or un simmlar they are.

My frame of referance would be (the best that I have) are the two languages
I speak and thier closest relaitives (of the major languages friasian,Scotts doesn't count because few people have exposure to them).

So for example Spanish has Lexical similarity 89% with Portuguese, 85% with Catalan, 82% with Italian, 76% with Sardinian, 75% with French, 74% with Rheto-Romance, 71% with Rumanian.

- Even Lexical simalarity is hard to go by because it goes by the meaning of the word in the language not the way it sounds so words like - fogo-fuego,filho-hijo,favlar-hablar (keep in mind I am spelling them the way they are writen in their languages) The 89% simmlarity makes it easy to pronounce most Portuguse words. Even if I don't know a word in Portuguse it is very easy to pronounce (for example singing in a song) and because it is so simmlar when I learn Foego = Fuego I won't forget it. I can even remember a song in portuguse very easily even thou I don't half the words (mostly due to the Fogo-Fuego thing after you are past that it's easy)

Where as with French even thou their is 74% simmalarity it is much much harder because the pronouncation is SO much diff. (I have no problem with any of the latin langues written thou) I can only speak French with someone if they speak very slowly (and that is after 1 year of French I ...allthou I am rusty and need practice). I can't remember lyrics in French either.




In English our closest relvitive is German which shares a little over 60% of out lexicon when I eat dinner over at my German friends house I understand less than French but, I kind of understand a sentence every now and then or at least what the conversation is about - much less than even hearing Italian and having not studyed Italian at all - other than some Italian music here and there + what I got from my grandmother up in till I turned 4 (of which I remember nearly nothing)

Anyways my question is just how simmlar are Mandarin and the languages listed? English-German, Spanish-Portuguse comparsion would really help give me some prospective on this subject.





Subject #2
With only 672 native speakers and a slow growth rate Mandarin probably won't be the number one language for long.

With 425 million native speakers and growing to 700 million-1 billion English will
become the number one language as far as native speakers are concerned. with somewhere around 1.5 billion second (or 3rd 4th 5th etc etc) speakers it is all ready the number one language over all.

All P34r English domination







Third topic:
Looking at this list:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers
It seems that the only truely big lanuages are
English,Mandarin,Portuguse,Spanish,Arabic,

(I left out Bengali and Hindi because most educated people in the regions where these are spoken speak English to each other rather than one of the two)

French may raise it's importance because of it potential for massive growth in
Africa (remember I said Potential) The same can be said for Portuguse also.

My hatsoff to the French thou I've been helping my friends artical for a college course about computers translating things and wow is it impressive how much better the French were at translating 1,000s of native languages (It may have a little to do with the lanugage it self). I hope we can do as well as the french did at translating 200-250 years ago on paper with computers and English.

All of the other languages seem to have dominance in in very few countries + a low population all together ( there are about 5,000 living languges many of them dieing)

Many Languages will survive,(75-350 ish in 100 years) For example everyone in Norway will I am sure speak Norweigen (spl?) but, it is likely that being the highly educated country they are all of them will speak English (One of the 5-10 dominante second langiages that everyone wil probably speak).

 

[GenMarshall]

All I care about is that the Japanese Kanjis (漢&#23383 came from China back in 57 CE.

But to a person who is speeking English and learning Japanese. I could not tell the differances from Mandrain from the other Chinese Languages unless I see their characters (In Traditional form).

 

[Tomoyo]

Lexical similarity between Mandarin and the rest of the Chinese dialects is almost 100%. The pronunciations are completely different, though, and someone who only spoke Mandarin would not be able to understand someone who only spoke Cantonese in anything more than the most basic of phrases, in context. Some dialects (Like Chaozhou and Shantou) are more similar, and there's a bit of mutual intelligibility. Chaozhou and Shantou are two southern dialects, while Mandarin is mostly a northern one, so I would imagine that Mandarin would be someone understandable by someone who spoke one of those.

Almost all grammar, vocabulary, and written language is the same between the dialects.

2. Mandarin is the "business" language in China, I think. The shops I walk into spoke Mandarin to me, even in Guangzhou or Hong Kong. That means that there are a lot more people that speak Mandarin than that statistic states.

But to a person who is speeking English and learning Japanese. I could not tell the differances from Mandrain from the other Chinese Languages unless I see their characters (In Traditional form).

That's interesting, since I could not tell the differences from Mandarin from the other Chinese Languages if I saw their characters. Their characters are all exactly the same.

 

[GenMarshall]

That's interesting, since I could not tell the differences from Mandarin from the other Chinese Languages if I saw their characters. Their characters are all exactly the same.

If I see their simplified characters, I would be lost. If I see their traditional characters, I would have a rough understanding of what it means based on the kanji that I know. Because I mainly pay close attention to the radicals in the character itself.

Key -
Black: Chinese Characters in Hànzì (Traditional Chinese), kanji (Japanese), hanja (Korean), Hán Tự (Vietnamese).
Red: Simplified Chinese

More info:
Chinese Characters
Simplified Chinese

 

[Elta]

Lexical similarity between Mandarin and the rest of the Chinese dialects is almost 100%. The pronunciations are completely different, though, and someone who only spoke Mandarin would not be able to understand someone who only spoke Cantonese in anything more than the most basic of phrases, in context. Some dialects (Like Chaozhou and Shantou) are more similar, and there's a bit of mutual intelligibility. Chaozhou and Shantou are two southern dialects, while Mandarin is mostly a northern one, so I would imagine that Mandarin would be someone understandable by someone who spoke one of those.

Almost all grammar, vocabulary, and written language is the same between the dialects.

2. Mandarin is the "business" language in China, I think. The shops I walk into spoke Mandarin to me, even in Guangzhou or Hong Kong. That means that there are a lot more people that speak Mandarin than that statistic states.That's interesting, since I could not tell the differences from Mandarin from the other Chinese Languages if I saw their characters. Their characters are all exactly the same.

I see now all I am wondering how simmlar or unsimmlar the pronounciation is compared to Spanish-Portuguese for say Cantonese-Mandarin (all the Chinese people I know speak Cantonese and it is the 4th most usefull one in Vegas - wondring if I learn it how hard it will be to learn Mandarin.

I know the stats had it low but that was Native langiage speakers according to my sources (chinese friends and wiki) nearly everyone in China speaks Mandarin.

.....The Spanish-Portuguese - Cantonese-Mandarin thing, maybe I ca contact a really old person from Macau who speaks portuguese.......

Thanks for your help Tomoyo.

 

[Tomoyo]

If I see their simplified characters, I would be lost. If I see their traditional characters, I would have a rough understanding of what it means based on the kanji that I know. Because I mainly pay close attention to the radicals in the character itself.

Yeah, I know.

What I'm wondering is how you can tell the difference between dialects by looking at the characters.

I see now all I am wondering how simmlar or unsimmlar the pronounciation is compared to Spanish-Portuguese for say Cantonese-Mandarin (all the Chinese people I know speak Cantonese and it is the 4th most usefull one in Vegas - wondring if I learn it how hard it will be to learn Mandarin.

I know the stats had it low but that was Native langiage speakers according to my sources (chinese friends and wiki) nearly everyone in China speaks Mandarin.

.....The Spanish-Portuguese - Cantonese-Mandarin thing, maybe I ca contact a really old person from Macau who speaks portuguese.......

I'm not sure how much different Spanish is from Portugese, but I can tell you this: Cantonese words that sound similar usually sound similar in Mandarin, even if the Cantonese and Mandarin don't sound too alike. Most words do sound similar, but there are lots of vowel sounds in Cantonese not in Mandarin. Usually, these vowel sounds correspond to a Mandarin vowel sound, and you can kinda adlib your way through a Mandarin conversation by using the Cantonese words, "Mandarin-ized". (I should know, I do this all the time)

 

[GenMarshall]

What I'm wondering is how you can tell the difference between dialects by looking at the characters.

Well the only thing that I would know is by their grammar structure if they write it to me in their language. As well as tell if they use traditional or simplified when they write. But Honestly I cant do that since I am mainly focusing on learning Japanese, not General Chinese .

Since to me Traditional Chinese Characters and the Japanese Kanji are the same.

 

[plarq]

I'm bad at Chinese Dialects, I'll let Dann explain this matter.

Dialects are different in grammar, syntax, pronunication and words. But they use the same two character sets: Traditional and Simplified.

 

[Tomoyo]

Well the only thing that I would know is by their grammar structure if they write it to me in their language.

Grammar is the same. In all dialects.

 

[GenMarshall]

Grammar is the same. In all dialects.

I must be paying too much attention on how Northern Americans speek differently than Southerners .

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Some dialects (Like Chaozhou and Shantou) are more similar, and there's a bit of mutual intelligibility. Chaozhou and Shantou are two southern dialects, while Mandarin is mostly a northern one, so I would imagine that Mandarin would be someone understandable by someone who spoke one of those.

Obviously, since the Teochew (Chaozhou) are Hokkien immigrants from Fujian province who settled around the town of Shantou in eastern Guangdong province.

2. Mandarin is the "business" language in China, I think. The shops I walk into spoke Mandarin to me, even in Guangzhou or Hong Kong. That means that there are a lot more people that speak Mandarin than that statistic states.That's interesting, since I could not tell the differences from Mandarin from the other Chinese Languages if I saw their characters. Their characters are all exactly the same.

Mandarin is the assigned language of the new China and the new Chinese everywhere, ever since Chinese nationalists toppled the Manchu Qing dynasty. It is the language of the 'educated' 'modernized' Chinese.

Also widely used in Malaysia and Singapore.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well the only thing that I would know is by their grammar structure if they write it to me in their language. As well as tell if they use traditional or simplified when they write. But Honestly I cant do that since I am mainly focusing on learning Japanese, not General Chinese .

Since to me Traditional Chinese Characters and the Japanese Kanji are the same.

Hardly the same. Traditional Chinese has tens of thousands of characters, of which Japanese only uses a subset.

Chinese characters are like symbols, or traffic signs. Means the same thing across languages but spoken or pronounced depending on the user.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

but I can tell you this: Cantonese words that sound similar usually sound similar in Mandarin, even if the Cantonese and Mandarin don't sound too alike. Most words do sound similar, but there are lots of vowel sounds in Cantonese not in Mandarin. Usually, these vowel sounds correspond to a Mandarin vowel sound, and you can kinda adlib your way through a Mandarin conversation by using the Cantonese words, "Mandarin-ized". (I should know, I do this all the time)

It is said that Cantonese is the closest modern version of how common Chinese was spoken in the days of the Han and Tang dynasties. That's why the Cantonese called themselves the 'Tang' people, and why Chinatowns are called 'Tang people street'.

Mandarin is 'softer', due to the impact of Manchu (and other) speakers invading N China (and the language).

 

[Ramius75]

It is said that Cantonese is the closest modern version of how common Chinese was spoken in the days of the Han and Tang dynasties. That's why the Cantonese called themselves the 'Tang' people, and why Chinatowns are called 'Tang people street'.

Mandarin is 'softer', due to the impact of Manchu (and other) speakers invading N China (and the language).

I cant imagine how the ancient chinese like the Han or Tang speaks like...

It will really be funny if they are speak like cantonese in those HK shows. the irony

 

[kcwong]

Hardly the same. Traditional Chinese has tens of thousands of characters, of which Japanese only uses a subset.

Chinese characters are like symbols, or traffic signs. Means the same thing across languages but spoken or pronounced depending on the user.

Indeed. For example,

Is present in both Chinese and Japanese.

In Japanese, it means "bath water".
In Chinese, it means "soup".

BTW KD's avatar seems to be incorrect... this is the proper way of writing the word "Dragon"...

Note the two strokes in the upper right corner is missing in KD's avatar. In Chinese Calligraphy the characters could be distorted for various reasons... but I've never seen missing strokes like that...

 

[nihilistic]

Since to me Traditional Chinese Characters and the Japanese Kanji are the same.

While Kanji is mostly (modern) Traditional Chinese, there are many exceptions:

1. Some Kanji characters are Simplified Chinese.
example: 国 (nation)

2. Some Kanji characters are not Chinese.
example: 私 (I [with subtle feminine or intimate connotations])

3. Some Kanji characters have very differnent meanings.
example: 安 ('cheap' in Japanese, 'peaceful' in Chinese)

 

[nihilistic]

iting the word "Dragon"...

Note the two strokes in the upper right corner is missing in KD's avatar. In Chinese Calligraphy the characters could be distorted for various reasons... but I've never seen missing strokes like that...

It could be an archaic form.

 

[kcwong]

2. Some Kanji characters are not Chinese.
example: 私 (I [with subtle feminine or intimate connotations])

It is in Chinese. It carries the meaning of "self" or "privacy"...
e.g. 自私 means "selfish"
e.g. 私隠 means "privacy"

It could be an archaic form.

Hmm you could be right. I'll need to research on the character's history.

 

[Dann]

Mandarin: 672 million native speakers
Wu: 87 million (2004 CIA)
Cantonese: 54.8 million (2005? [unsourced])
Southern Min/Taiwanese: 46 million (1984)
Jin: 45 million (1984)
Xiang: 36 million (1984)
Hakka: 30 million (1984)
Gan: 21 million (1984)
Northern Min: 10.3 million (1984)
Eastern Min: 9.1 million (2000 WCD)
Hui: 3.2 million
Pu-Xian Min: 2.6 million (2000 WCD)

Of the lot, I know only Mandarin, Southern Min/Taiwanese, and a little Cantonese. I can assure you verbally those three are all so mutually unintelligible they should be separate languages. However because their written form is the same they become considered as just mere 'dialects'.

This convenience is mostly one-way though. A sentence in Mandarin written down can easily be read into Cantonese and Min-nan, but if a Cantonese writes his speech down (as it is spoken) the Mandarin reader will be able to read the words but not make any sense of them.

It's worse with Min-nan. A Min-nan sentence as spoken will have some sounds that don't even have a Mandarin equivalent (there are "b' and "g" sounds like in English for instance). And so you will have a few words written in Pinyin, but have to be read as they sound English, and you have no way of knowing what they mean unless you're a native speaker.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

BTW KD's avatar seems to be incorrect... this is the proper way of writing the word "Dragon"...

Note the two strokes in the upper right corner is missing in KD's avatar. In Chinese Calligraphy the characters could be distorted for various reasons... but I've never seen missing strokes like that...

It's taken from a Song dynasty calligraphy example, by one of the emperors I think...