How Difficult do you find the game currently?

Exactly. The punishment for building too many wonder is in the right number already. I don't think we need any more reduction in wonder penalty. Besides, there's no guarantee that new value of production cost percentage modifier is actually solving the wonder spread within game. That's what I experienced in my game; a 10 or 11-player civ game. Most of the times in the early game (until the end of medieval) every civilizations have built at least one wonder. I'm satisfied with that condition. Building wonder have no strict limitations, well, except only one on the map.

By the way, we have different opinions towards "You aren’t hurting yourself much if you do go for them". The penalty of FAILED ATTEMPT at wonder building is big for me it really affects my decision. Weighing the pros-cons of building wonder is a big mini-game within civ. Do I need this wonder, really? Can I put this wonder outside of my capital? How many turns of sweating and sigh-and-relieve will this wonder be? Who's gonna be the contender? How close other empire are in the tech and culture overview? Am I going to have sufficient gold to invest in this wonder? Do I need gold for other things in the mean time? Can I afford that city to be in constant infrastructure while building this wonder? How many trade route I need to support the city? Is the payoff huge? Do I need Golden Age with Great Artist to boost the production? Can I protect my empire while building this wonder? Can I afford to lose this wonder to someone else who also want it? And Again, do I REALLY need this wonder? If all of those questions and doubt are justified, that's when I click "Build this Wonder". It's not just a matter of "Just Do It". Maybe because I am usually on edge about wonder building tho lol.

I am open to be proven wrong based on other's experience.

Okay, I respect other's points of view, certainly, but if we’re stating with certainty that we’re currently at the right value, without evidence/testing/etc, that may be a flawed argument. I certainly don’t have all the data, I just know that in all games past, there are 1-3 runaways. Sometimes I’m in that pack, others I’m not, but it is always without fail that those running away have wonder stockpiles. I’ve been playing a few games recently with adjusted numbers and it’s proving to spread out wonders much more. I’m not talking about Ancient era, which will have spread out wonders due to starting tech paths, and no one is a runaway yet, so that’s not in the scope of the argument. Once Civs get their economy and yields chugging along and stretching out leads, starting sometime in Medieval/Renaissance, that’s when Civs start running away and catching more wonders.

My apologies, I should have been more clear with my original statement, if you are in the front of the pack, you don’t have many opportunity costs to picking all of the wonders. I’m playing a China game now, who I could snowball very easily with before the changes I made. It’s late Renaissance, and I am raking in gold. I have built everything there is to build in my 9 non-puppet cities due to investing. I’m leading Tech and Policies both by 1. At the top of a pack of about 2-3. The only things I can do at this point are build units (don’t need, I have plenty of Chu-Ko-Nus for defense and don’t plan to attack for a bit), diplomacy units (only have 2 paper so I’m doing those 2 at a time), workers (already have 19, so 2 per city is plenty), processes (running either tech or culture, whichever I need to keep the two mostly even), or wonders. There’s 4 wonders available. What’s my opportunity cost for NOT trying to build them? Processes? I will be fine not running a process for a few turns, since if I lose the wonder, I’ll get reimbursed culture anyways. No downside at all to trying for more wonders.

The questions you posed are all great to consider, very thorough! But if you’re having to ask those questions, you probably aren’t at a runaway point, and THAT’S the whole point of increased cost penalties for multiple wonders so you can’t snowball harder. If you’re not at the front of the pack, and you are having to ask those questions, you may not have built many wonders anyways, in which case the penalties do not affect you, which means nothing changes to you between what you do or ask yourself now to what you’d do if the penalties were higher. And if you HAVE built a bunch of wonders, but still not at the front of the pack, then perhaps you’re either not planning/building the right wonders for your strategy or not capitalizing on the benefits of those wonders, in which case the penalties would not be your problem, it would be the rest of your gameplay strategy.

EDIT: At this point, before I made these changes, I am confident I could build most if not all of these wonders because I have a good idea of what specific techs the other leaders are on, I know how many policies they have, and I am confident my production is higher on average than theirs, partly because I took Diligence in religion. Could they combo an investment and a GE to snipe a wonder or two? Sure, but that just means they get these and I’ll beat them to the ones in next era. But I am also confident I’d start a full runaway at this point previously. I’ll let you know how this game concludes but I’m betting with these higher costs I’ve added, I will get fewer this era and next since both are at 40% currently. That’ll slow me down either due to building those (longer build time) or just because I don’t have them at all.
 
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Okay, I respect other's points of view, certainly, but if we’re stating with certainty that we’re currently at the right value, without evidence/testing/etc, that may be a flawed argument.

Since we are so late in the project, the assumption should always be "the current balance is correct". If a person wants to make a change, they must have a strong argument that there is currently an issue. The burden of proof falls squarely on the person making that statement.

The "evidence/testing" is the sheer number of games that have been played with the current value, without seeing this concern brought up strongly before. That doesn't mean a problem is not present, but it does add weight to the status quo.
 
Since we are so late in the project, the assumption should always be "the current balance is correct". If a person wants to make a change, they must have a strong argument that there is currently an issue. The burden of proof falls squarely on the person making that statement.

The "evidence/testing" is the sheer number of games that have been played with the current value, without seeing this concern brought up strongly before. That doesn't mean a problem is not present, but it does add weight to the status quo.
Fair point. I am trying to play as often as possible to provide more data points!

Perhaps as more and more aspects of the game fall into balance, things like wonder-whoring start to tip the scales a bit more strongly, or at least evidence of such begins to show more whereas before it may have been hidden in the noise, or attributed to other things.

It would be helpful if folks kept track of when runaways start to happen and how many wonders they have compared to the rest of the field (human players included), as I am doing, to either support or refute my hypothesis.
 
Since we are so late in the project, the assumption should always be "the current balance is correct". If a person wants to make a change, they must have a strong argument that there is currently an issue. The burden of proof falls squarely on the person making that statement.

The "evidence/testing" is the sheer number of games that have been played with the current value, without seeing this concern brought up strongly before. That doesn't mean a problem is not present, but it does add weight to the status quo.

This should be put on the front of this forum so that all member read it first. It has a powerful meaning.
 
Do you consider that the civ that is running away might not have built all the wonders it possesses?

I do consider that, as I have used the Wonder Notification mod to track who is building what and when while testing.
 
I agree with the DoW's. Since all AI's (even "peaceful ones") play more like humans now and take advantage of weakness, you almost always get early DoW--which yeah I can hold off but it puts me even further behind. Guess I'll be using Really Advanced Setup to be giving myself an extra worker and pathfinder. .
Could more options be added to RAS that you want to include?
https://forums.civfanatics.com/posts/15257631/
 
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