. With the goal of building tons of fast cities towards an eventual "Super Trade Power Democracy", you would rather have the benefits of Colossus in one city over the benefits of HG civilization wide? HG can bring you into a "Super Trade Power Republic" long before Democracy is feasable and long before Monotheism is practical. HG expires too quickly? If it celebrates 50-100 cities to size 7's and 8's before Rail... starting in an early Republic, it has for my tastes more than done it's job. Better to get Marcos and HG, (and Pyramids for my tastes), build a Power Republic, then Super Trade your way to your other goals. Nothing wrong with Mikes, but what is wrong with enjoying the amazing benefits of HG in the meantime? I suspect something somewhere got lost in the translation.
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How is it that you can stand Monarchy after reaching this number of cities?
No you dit not say that Starlifter is a great player but you doubted if he played deity..."
Hmm... Let me try to set the record strait. I believe Starlifter is a brilliant and masterful player. His writings are so good as to be inspirational. If he sometimes doesn't play deity, it's because not every "game of the month" is played at that level.
"I stay with Monarchy because the AI is used to discover techs for me ....it's the only part of the game where it can."
Couldn't this be done just as easily in a thriving Republic?
"In the meanwhile I set my taxes high. That way I can build quickly the necessary things."
At many points of the game i zero the science too... but in Republic.
"In some games I do skip monarchy because it fit's better (techtree is not right->easier to go to Republic)...."
Similarly, in some games i am forced to Monarchy.
"When the hapiness becomes a problem I go to Republic.....or when having techs like Medicine."
i got lost here...
"I have some warriors but not to much. I try to convert them with Leonardo's to musketeers for more shields......".
Makes sense... so you agree that in monarchy at some point a warrior does nothing whatsoever to quell unrest?
"I don't know if it's the right way chosing Monarchy or Republic, but I know that players like Solo can build spaceships early AD and they do it with Monarchy. They tried it with Republic also but never came close to the landing date with Monarchy...that's the reason why I chose Monarchy..."
Interesting. As for me i know i can do it faster from Republic
... Now, I just go for early Republic and have discovered that this tactic has several advantages:"
Sounds like you're doing great with it. Welcome aboard.
"2. I rarely need to build more than one useless Warrior to maintain order in any cities before Republic. With proper micro-management (i.e. finishing settlers just in time before growing to size 3) I never pay shield support for my warriors or Settlers."
I like this aspect too. Sounds like your micro management techniques are formidible.
"3. Even if I have to go to 40% Luxuries in early Republic, I end up with just as much trade to dump into tax/science as I would in monarchy, even using Martial Law to maintain order. "
Yes, i find the same to be true. I think at about the 10th city u have to go to 40% or a size one will not be content in the grass.
"4. My early, mostly Domestic, trading pays off way, way better than in Monarchy. The resulting trade routes are better, too. I usually try to get my SSC 'vans out to demanding foreigners if I can possibly manage it. The payoffs there can be superb, well worth pumping out a disposable Trireme."
This is one area where it seems we may play differently Terrapin. What kind of domestic bonuses are we talking about here? I make a point of avoiding domestic trade in the "very early going", hoping rather to find some foreign nations i can reach. As well i'm not sure how early you mean, but i really wouldn't want to build a caravan instead of another settler to do a size 3 to size 3 self-trade, even if it's on a separate land. I'd rather first focus on expansion... and once the cities begin to celebrate to 5's and above, i begin to think about a fast transition into a super trade game, preferably foreign. For me if a trade is only bringing say 75 or less, i'd much rather have another settler instead. When i start trading, i rarely see anything under 200. And before long, it's a tech per turn for the remainder of the game.
"5. Once each city has a domestic trade route or two, I can lower Lux and my science/tax jumps even further ahead."
I won't say this is a bad idea, but in my opinion it's not worth it. Again, i would opt for more settlers until i am ready to trade foreign. Did you know, by the way, that there is a pendulum for the lux rate that is necessary? i believe at about the 10th city, you need 40% which takes you to about 15 cities at which point for a short while, 60% might work better. Once you reach about 24 cities, you can thrive with 40% again. And as i mentioned in other posts, once you reach about 36 cities, almost every size 3 can celebrate at 40% with an elvis. i think when u reach about 48, you are less easily placated again (like you were at 24 cities) and so it goes throughout the remainder of the game, fluctuating in i believe 12 city increments. Reason i say this is that you might be able to lower your lux rate at certain points because of this as opposed to it being because of the trade routes. Of course the routes would help too, but just keep the lux pendulum in mind too.
"6. As Wildpony noted, the cities limit makes fast expansion in Monarchy a real trial."
Since it's me you quoted, you already know i agree with you whole heartedly.
"With Republic, you are committed to using Lux for domestic tranquility anyway."
Yes, stick lux at 40% and enjoy the peaceful ride.
"In late Monarchy, I sometimes have to start using Lux to support expansion..."
Late monarchy means about how many cities for you? For me at 15 or 20 in Monarchy, i'm at 60% lux with several size one riots and wishing to God i had Republic instead.
"then I am in the worst or both worlds: Spending trade arrows on Lux, but not getting the Rep/Dem trade bonus."
Again we agree wholeheartedly. Lux in Monarchy is so ineffective compared to that in Republic. Cranking it up to 60% and either rioting to grow a size one faster, or sticking it on a really weak ocean square to have contentment. Off the subject, but this is where i like irrigation a lot.. i'll riot in size one to quickly get to size two where 60% lux in monarchy actually accomplishes something good.
"Of course, the best laid plans of mice, men and Terrapins have their downsides. The only ones I have found are:"
"1. With a bunch of size 2 cities in Republic, totally dependent as they are on producing trade, shield support costs are almost totally unsupportable. I typically have to disband the single warrior each pre-Republic city gets as soon as I change over."
Unless i am using them for a little bit of short term exploration, i disband all warriors upon Republic too. I think of Rep as an opportunity with moderate shield production to go full gold for a while and rush settlers typically to 30 shields then allow them to build themselves in 3 turns. Here's a bit of micro management for you. Usually with the 40% lux rate i'll be on two grass/shield squares giving me 3 total shields per turn. Upon 36 shields i will switch to a forest. The city looks unhappy but won't be by the time the settler is built. The zero science rate and the efficient micro management makes for some very speedy expansion. Typically i'm racing to "critical mass" which is about 36 cities. That's another reason i don't want to build vans for self trading in the early going. Of course caravans for wonder races are another story.
"2. To compensate for (1), I have to take time before settling my first city to pop a hut or two and hope I get lucky and get "friendly mercenaries" so I have some NONE units to defend/chase barbs."
Interesting concept... Since multi player games are usually "villages only", this idea never occurred to me. In any case, should you find yourself in Republic and in need of some homeland defense, i'm sure you wouldn't be the least bit shy about building as many units as you felt necessary for your safety.... which i would expect to be a fairly small number. Assuming it's a bribe game, i am assuming you would have a few diplomats as well... and that's another way to pick up some "none" units... or is it? I rarely play bribes, so i don't remember if bribed barbs get homed
"3. Because I cannot have defenders in each city (without spending for shield support, which seriously slows production) I need to make a bigger push to get my cities connected by roads so that my NONE defenders can rush to "Hot Spots."
Excellent strategy. A small number of horses can cover a lot of ground if your civ is connected.
"The settlers making those roads are both not making cities AND eating as much as a citizen who actually gets out in the city square and earns!"
Yeah i like to hurry up and build new cities with them too, but roads on grass/shields and on plains are both crucial for motility and for making your 40% lux rate work for you.
"If anyone has any suggestions to limit the downsides, I would love to hear them."
Otherwise my only suggestion is to weigh these downsides against the Monarchy alternative and see which feels heavier.
You wouldn't happen to play multi, would you?
Since i build a lot of cities very quickly, i really hate Monarchy... and so i go strait for Republic.
There is a 3-human normal production deity game i played earlier today. In the equivalent of 875bc (it's 625bc, but we agreed to build our first cities in 3500). i have 24 cities, 9 Settlers, Republic since 1850bc (would presumably have been 2250 in a 4000bc build), and just built HG this turn after a blitz to Bronze/Currency/Trade following many turns of zero science and settler rushing since completing Republic, typical of my general strategy.
It's been an above average game. My land is very decent, my 3rd city, was birthed from a nomad found very near my capital... which is of course fantastically beneficial... and i got 3 other tribes or nomads later on contributing to the 24. Mikes comes some point much later after ramping up the Super Trade Power Republic. My goals in this game would be to build LH next if possible (only because of the human factor), then Pyramids. Then i would await Super Foreign Trade before moving towards Mikes, Suns, Bachs, Magellans, Leos, then Statue.
If you look at the save you see that the fast expansion is fuelled by cities that are mostly 2 steps apart
I think you would do well Rrhal to build your cities much much faster. What are you building instead of more quick settlers that makes you have only ten cities in 1ad?
Yearning to attach the save, but facing technical difficulties in that endeavor.
"When the hapiness becomes a problem I go to Republic.....or when having techs like Medicine."
i got lost here...
(others mayby not) You need to much warriors while I would build other things like settlers and caravans....I tend to go for monarchy and then trade. I find that going for republic can take substantially longer if you get too many off path techs, either from huts or from a trade with an opponent where you were hoping they had something useful (instead of a stupid military tech)."
I feel you on this and I have actually become very disciplined about it. I open huts (or trade with ai if we meet that early) only until i get the one mandatory off path tech or begin researching it. Then it's all about delayed gratification. Usually i will tap huts again once i "begin" research on Republic, unless i see that i can hit oedo just right by holding back until it is done. Mainly i want/need to avoid hitting a 2nd off path before being given the opportunity to "choose" Republic. My hope in every game is to find (or trade for) the one off path tech i need so i won't have to research it. The caviat is that when i find "horse" or "warrior code" at the wrong time, even if it is my only off path, it sometimes forces me to ceremonial/monarchy.
"Going from monarchy to trade gets you trade sooner, which is immensely helpful in wonder building."
This is actually a good point, hard to argue. No doubt i sacrifice a thing or two going to Republic. However, whether in Republic or in Monarchy, i've "never not been able to" get every wonder i have ever wanted vs ai in deity.
"Also, by the time MPE is built, someone usually has literacy (with which you can also research republic) and mysticism; get both and you are on your way to researching philosophy. Get that, then choose either Monotheism (if you remembered to get polytheism) if available, or republic. Then research the other as you build 8 caravans.""
also a good plan. But for me i would be so satisfied in Republic that i wouldn't be in a great hurry to rush philosophy and 8 caravans for Mikes... waiting instead until there was hot competition for that race. I'd take the opportunity to crank out settlers and expand instead. The wonders i would want in a hurry are Marcos, HG and Pyramids. Then i'd be all about the money and all about the rushed settlers while enjoying Republic. After celebrating to 5's and above, probably 7s and 8s, i'd be all about the foreign trades.
"The trouble with building Hanging Gardens to help with republic is that it requires an early off-path tech and that 200 shields is equivalent to 4-5 cities (depending on if you need warriors), whithout considering "compound interest".
Also a very good point.
"Moreover, 1 city has to build it, so it doesn't even take effect for a while."
Ideally for me, i'd get marcos, pottery by trading for it and nail HG with 4 quick caras... do the same for pyramids. And then be back in the settler rushing business... micro managing in such a way as to get most cities to size 3 and celebrating before building settlers... then rushing them very fast in every size 4 and above. With pyramids, a size 2 city with very little food in the box (less than half, especially if much less than half), i'll rush a settler there and let the food spill to half full when it turns size 2 again... then await the size 3 celebration before building another settler. Actually i'd begin building trade caravans in the best trade cities at this point too.
"By the time I am in a position to build the Gardens, I am able to put the shields to Mike's (in my opinion a better use) and once I have finished Mike's, an AI has usually got the Gardens, or I'll have to scramble to get it."
Yes at this point it comes down to preference. If one plan is only slightly better than the other, it's hard to know which is which
