How do i effectively use Democracy

[Millman]

For a broader argument it depends on what map you play and how hard you make the game. At this point many of the greatest players here have gone beyond the games limitations and are giving good advice.

It took me several tries become I got that whopping 850% on Emperor and I had to build many 'happiness' wonders on this level until I stabilized. But I'm probably only avid compared to the best possible outcome on this particular incarnation.

 

[WildPony]

I've looked into this a little.

If you have to research all the techs yourself, the order to do it in if going for republic is:
Alphabet, Code of Laws, Writing, (Bronze Working, off-path). Literacy, Republic, (Currency), (Trade).

If you get off path directly after alphabet, Code of Laws can simply be researched as the 4th tech.

If, however, your tech pattern goes like this:
Alphabet, Code of Laws, (off path)...
there is nothing on-path to republic to research, and you have research an off-path tech as a fourth tech because you already have code of laws.

So essentially, you can pop huts while researching alphabet, or writing, but not code of laws. Once you are researching your off-path tech (IMO, Bronze Working is prefered) (or code of laws if you picked a tech up while researching Alphabet) you can stand to acquire 1 more off-path tech with only the "carrying cost" but not 2.

It should be noted, however, that picking up the extra tech will require an off-path before currency and trade.

This is a really excellent find Prof. Garfield. Thanks for your research on this

You inspired me to do some follow up testing... and reaffirm what you are saying. Seems that if Republic is your goal, popping huts during research on "Code" is the kiss of death... but it is seemingly safe at all other times.

Have you found that you can pop a first and/or 2nd off path tech hut during research on writing or a 2nd off path during research on literature with no risk to having republic being made unavailable? What about a 1st and/or 2nd off path tech before and/or during research on alphabet (ie: in a "no city building til 3500bc" game).

Does this all mean that you have been experimenting with Republic instead of Monarchy as a potential viable alternative in your own games?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I printed off the list of techs and wrote 1, 2 or 3 beside each one, representing the order in which they are blocked. The first hidden "cycle" consists of all the "2" techs, but alphabet (cycle 2) is always available because of the designing feature that lets the first tech on the list that you have the pre-reqs for always appear on the research list (it was a programming safe-guard).

I then plotted the techs to research under columns for each "cycle," and looked at the best alternatives under each circumstance. There was no play-testing beyond making sure that I knew the start-cycle and that the researchable techs matched my prediction. It was largely an "ivory tower" theory.

The trouble with getting to republic is that writing and literacy are both absent on the same "cycle" (2), and that code of laws is a pre-req for literacy.

I'll list the possible research patterns, in this form: tech (cycle tech is absent)
(vertical list, because it is easier to type and keep neat)

Cycle-----------------Tech Paths----------------

2---Alphabet (2)-----Alphabet (2)-----Alphabet (2)-----Alphabet (2)-----Alphabet (2)------Alphabet (2)----Alphabet (2)
3--Code of Laws (1)--Off Path------Code of Laws (1)--Code of Laws (1)-Code of Laws (1)---Off Path---------Off Path
1---Writing (2)------Writing (2)------Off Path-----------Writing (2)-----Writing (2)--------Writing (2)---------Writing (2)
2----Off Path-----Code of Laws (1)--Off Path (CB for Mon)-Off Path-------Off Path-------Code of Laws (1)---Off Path
3---Literacy (2)----Literacy (2)-------Writing (2) (Mon (1)-Off Path------Literacy (2)------Off Path-----------Code of Laws (1)
1--Republic (3)----Republic (3)------Literacy (2)--------Literacy (2)------Off Path---------Literacy (2)--------Literacy (2)
2----------------------------------Republic (3)--------Republic (3)------Republic (3)-------Republic (3)-----Republic (3)

I think this covers anything relatively likely if you don't get techs before alphabet. Anything else you can do yourself.

As for pre-alphabet

2-----Off path------Off path
3--Alphabet (2)----Alphabet (2)
1--Writing (2)-------Off Path
2--Code of Laws (1)-Code of Laws (1)
3---Literacy (2)------Writing (2)
1---Republic (3)-----Literacy (2)
2------------------Republic (3)

This information gives more ability to pop huts on the way to republic without risking delaying the tech by more than the extra carrying cost of techs.

Does this all mean that you have been experimenting with Republic instead of Monarchy as a potential viable alternative in your own games?

The more I know about the benefits and pitfals of strategies, the better I can determine what is best and argue the case. Unfortunately, I haven't played a regular deity game for a while (or any game for that matter, asside from the succession game and GOTM), so arguing for monarchy comes from a habit developed a while ago, and from my recolection of game mechanics. And, of course, the recolection of game mechanics comes from what I have done most regularly, and prep for an early republic was not a frequent occurance in my deity games. A prep for monarchy and contemplation of a republican government will lead to different opinions than a prep for republic and contemplation of a republican government would.

 

[rrhal]

So you are going Republic before you get Hanging Gardens (Pottery), and well before Monotheism. Are you doing this in Deity? I mean unless you score Ceremonial Burial you don't even have temples.

When ever I've tried something along these lines I found happiness was too difficult.

 

[Magic_gorter]

@ pr. Garfield. The real cycle numbers are 0, 1 and 2 (I don't know why). In the early landing document of Solo is a complete list and perhaps an explanation why it is not 1,2,3. I think every game starts with the 0 and 1 serie when there is no tech discovered but am not sure.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

@ pr. Garfield. The real cycle numbers are 0, 1 and 2 (I don't know why). In the early landing document of Solo is a complete list and perhaps an explanation why it is not 1,2,3. I think every game starts with the 0 and 1 serie when there is no tech discovered but am not sure.

I had done a few test rounds before working out the republic path (I just didn't outright confirm the results, though Wild Pony indicated he did so), so I am quite sure that the techs are available in the order I have listed, and that the first cycle is 2 as I have labeled them. The "names" of each cycle are not overly important, though it is nice to know the convention. I have not determined if there is a change in the starting cycle if a civ has starting techs.

So you are going Republic before you get Hanging Gardens (Pottery), and well before Monotheism. Are you doing this in Deity? I mean unless you score Ceremonial Burial you don't even have temples.

When ever I've tried something along these lines I found happiness was too difficult.

Yes, I'm considering this in deity. The happiness problems you mentioned are the greatest obstacle to overcome, and the primary reason why I prefer Monarchy and martial law. The issue is if these problems can be overcome, and if the trade-off is worth the cost and effort.

Monarchy has certain benefits besides martial law: free support and 1 less food consumed per settler. In the early game this can be very important, especially if you are building lots of settlers (as I usually am). That is 2 resources per turn for every city supporting a settler. Republic gains 2 trade for every size 1 city and 3 for every size 2 city (if the city is working a trade square). Not all cities, however, are supporting settlers at a given time.

Of course, the republic will require luxuries, which will eat up 2 trade. If the civ has 10 or fewer cities, the first citizen is content and 2 luxuries will support a size 2 city. This extra trade comes from the republic bonus, however, so all the trade available for taxes and science in monarchy is still available. The difference is that all of that trade can be directed into science, instead of just 70%. Corruption is also somewhat lower. Hanging gardens might ease this considerably, but then there is the cost of building them.

If I had to build temples in all the cities, that would most certainly eat up any advantage republic has over monarchy.

This is still a worthwhile discussion, though admittedly it is somewhat off-topic for a "How do I effectively use Democracy" thread.

 

[WildPony]

So you are going Republic before you get Hanging Gardens (Pottery), and well before Monotheism. Are you doing this in Deity? I mean unless you score Ceremonial Burial you don't even have temples.

When ever I've tried something along these lines I found happiness was too difficult.

hey rrhal,

yes we're talking about a flourishing Republic in Deity with no contentment structures of any kind and no wonders. The key is that upon the 10th city or so, a 40% luxury rate becomes necessary (and no more than one unit per city can be "away"). As the game progresses i get a feel for what rate is best at the time, with all factors considered. 40% would work "fine" for the remainder of the game, 10 cities to 100+, but often when celebrating and even when wanting to utilize more forests throughout your civ, 50%, 60%, 70%, or even 80% luxury works best. 80% sounds terrible, but in the cities that are not celebrating, you have a good many shields and/or tax collectors therein... And as we all know by now, lots of foreign trade is the bread and butter source of your science and gold income... and celebrated, larger cities make for more lucrative trades.

HG is very nice and i want it, but even without it, my Republic is fine.

I mean unless you score Ceremonial Burial you don't even have temples.

I very rarely build a temple in an unlimited city Deity game, and certainly not vs. the ai. In a game that reaches Sanitation, or even in a game that doesn't, i will likely have built both HG and Mikes by then, possibly Bachs as well.

When ever I've tried something along these lines I found happiness was too difficult.

If you are in Monarchy with 12-14 cities or less (i believe but Monarchy is not exactly my area of expertise) ... and stay at this number, you can be very content for a nice long while. But have you played monarchy with 15-20 cities or more, before any wonders or buildings? In Comparing Monarchy with 20 cities and a 60% lux rate vs. Republic with 20 cities and a 40% lux rate... Republic runs so much smoother compared to the struggling monarchy, it's almost as if the Republic has HG. If you have 15-20 cities or more in Monarchy and you don't have HG, your civ is falling apart.

 

[WildPony]

If you are in Monarchy with 12-14 cities or less (i believe but Monarchy is not exactly my area of expertise) ... and stay at this number, you can be very content for a nice long while. But have you played monarchy with 15-20 cities or more, before any wonders or buildings? In Comparing Monarchy with 20 cities and a 60% lux rate vs. Republic with 20 cities and a 40% lux rate... Republic runs so much smoother compared to the struggling monarchy, it's almost as if the Republic has HG. If you have 15-20 cities or more in Monarchy and you don't have HG, your civ is falling apart.

By the way, if this is in any way untrue for classic users, i'd hate to think that it's another versional difference... Multiplayer Gold vs. Classic. Could this be?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I don't recall having unhappiness problems sufficient to require luxuries in Monarchy in a standard deity game, but I don't stay there forever. If I ever ran across a black hat in Monarchy at deity I would probably leave the city in disorder until it grew.

A period of monarchy is nice for my style of play, because for me the early game is a big land-grab, where I build cities as fast as possible. I suppose the benefits of republican trade might compensate for a 10 city cap for a short time, diverting extra settlers to a bit of improvement and later production to caravans. Also, a plan for republic would cause me to choose slightly more optimal sites for first cities.

 

[WildPony]

I don't recall having unhappiness problems sufficient to require luxuries in Monarchy in a standard deity game, but I don't stay there forever. If I ever ran across a black hat in Monarchy at deity I would probably leave the city in disorder until it grew.

At 15-20 cities in monarchy (deity), are black hats not running rampant, or could it be that multi player gold version plays differently from classic in this area? For me, at about this point, warriors can no longer do a thing to help quell unrest and the only hope for a monarchy is 60% lux... but this won't help the size one's unless they choose an ocean square.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Unless I am much mistaken, the riot factor depends on the map size. This might explain the discrepency.

 

[Millman]

So how hard is this game?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

So how hard is this game?

Given the fact that you have indicated playing civ 2 on emperor, I don't really understand your question. We aren't dealing with difficulty at the moment; the monarchy and republic strategies have both been successful for their practitioners, we are just discussing which one gives better results.

 

[rrhal]

hey rrhal,
...
If you are in Monarchy with 12-14 cities or less (i believe but Monarchy is not exactly my area of expertise) ... and stay at this number, you can be very content for a nice long while. But have you played monarchy with 15-20 cities or more, before any wonders or buildings? In Comparing Monarchy with 20 cities and a 60% lux rate vs. Republic with 20 cities and a 40% lux rate... Republic runs so much smoother compared to the struggling monarchy, it's almost as if the Republic has HG. If you have 15-20 cities or more in Monarchy and you don't have HG, your civ is falling apart.

I tried this line out this morning and it seemed to work better. I found that I needed Mikes like I needed air by the time I could get Monotheism. I had some cities that had lots of trade arrows (size 3 generating 9 arrows) that just refused to be happy at reasonable levels of luxuries (60%). Once I got Mikes and was able to build a Market place I could get my cities to party up to size 7.

I missed on the Super Science City wonders but I have Leonardo's and I can build statue of Liberty.

 

[Peaster]

I took a break from Civ2 in early 2009 and missed the 2nd half of this thread, which got very interesting, especially the republic vs monarchy debate. Thanks ProfG for pointing this out. Also, your analysis of the early tech tree makes a good point.

In my opinion, Monarchy is superior to Republic in the beginning of the game, for fast ICS-style growth and for getting trade started. When I play for EC on a large map, I usually stay in monarchy until the end, and may build 100 cities with no major happiness problems. The keys are HG when I have approx 10 cities, and then Mike's whenever I need it. For me, that's usually approx 1AD with approx 40 cities. With the fast growth, I can usually build all the Wonders I want [HG, MPE, LH, maybe Pyr, Col, Mike's...] before the AI, if that is my priority. I have never seen anyone play EC successfully without early Monarchy, though it is reasonable to switch to Republic later [see GOTM 108]. I think Magic is correct that early landing players also favor early Monarchy, though early Republic may make more sense there [it is also plausible in OCC, I hear].

The main benefit of Republic is the growth in city size from celebration, which allows nice trade bonuses. If I switch from Monarchy to Republic, I wait until I have approx 5 cities of at least size 3 which can benefit from that. Maybe 500BC or so. This coincides roughly with a switch from ICS growth to big trade growth. If interested, see GOTM 110, a comparison game devoted to EL and trade.

BTW, comparison games have shown that fast early growth is more important than govt. That is, a strong ICS player with some patience will usually beat a strong Demo player with average growth skills. See GOTM 16.

I don't recall many experiments with very early Republic in our GOTMs. If you believe in that, it might be worth a try. And if successful, that would convince people.

 

[WildPony]

In my opinion, Monarchy is superior to Republic in the beginning of the game, for fast ICS-style growth and for getting trade started. When I play for EC on a large map, I usually stay in monarchy until the end, and may build 100 cities with no major happiness problems. The keys are HG when I have approx 10 cities, and then Mike's whenever I need it.

Hey Peaster ,

Monarchy can certainly provide an avenue to a highly successful game as you have masterfully shown repeatedly. I'd say that HG is not only a key, but an absolute must if you are going to play Monarchy (in Deity) or else cities will be in desperate trouble upon reaching 15 or 20 where no level of luxury rate and no number of warriors will make them flourish. Playing Republic instead you actually have a viable option to enjoy a thriving civ without HG.

I am used to facing strong humans where no player can get HG every game. Of course this is a forum of "vs. ai players", so this is where i will focus my thoughts. Vs. ai, a good player is guaranteed HG and any wonder they want which makes monarchy quite a bit more viable. In my case, i would hold back on wonders until Republic/Trade, getting Marcos first then HG only as fast as necessary while thriving in an ICS Republic without it, actually getting Pyramids after Marcos once HG was assured since Pyra benefits in a Republic are valuable earlier in allowing cities to rush to size 3 where then the power of HG can be fully realized (through celebration growth).

An interesting comparison is Monarchy+HG vs. Republic without it (+ more cities/faster expansion from not sacrificing to make the early investment in HG). As tested in human vs. human games with comparable starting positions, comparable hut luck and equally matched players, this would generally work out to about 16 Republic cities vs. 10 cities in Monarchy and likely become about 30 or 32 vs. 20. My position is thus that you can ICS faster vs. the ai in Republic than in Monarchy, because in Monarchy early HG is mandatory and in Republic HG can wait a bit as you pursue other goals without having your civ fall apart. .

The main benefit of Republic is the growth in city size from celebration, which allows nice trade bonuses.

Yes, larger "celebrated" cities with vastly superior trade bonuses. For a player that places a high emphasis on ICS then Trade, this makes a big difference.

BTW, comparison games have shown that fast early growth is more important than govt. That is, a strong ICS player with some patience will usually beat a strong Demo player with average growth skills.

I completely agree with this. ICS is exceedingly powerful and an essential early step to optimal success, long before Democracy can possibly be reached. But one can ICS very successfully in early Republic which is not to be confused with the long wait to reach Democracy.

I don't recall many experiments with very early Republic in our GOTMs. If you believe in that, it might be worth a try. And if successful, that would convince people.

Yes i have started a few games but unfortunately it has been difficult to find or make the time to finish them... otherwise there would be some very interesting early Republic games for players to see and compare. The only gotms i have finished have been a couple that i played with One City.

 

[timtofly]

Since I am not a mathematician, I cannot give any formulas. I doubt I can even give any rule of thumbs yet. I do beleive though everything revolves around the happiness formula. Monarchy is good for war. Republic is good for growth. I am not talking about number of cities, but how each city developes. Since in all probability one will get Monarchy first, Rebublic has not been properly thought out. Those who play for growth instead of war have skipped over Monarchy and gone straight for Republic. In both cases of gov. and (EC or EL) early game has been focused on settlers and vans and settlers and vans.

In the case of EC there comes a point when you want to conquer. At this point Republic is useless bringing us back to happiness and growth. So here is something to try to mix things up a bit. Go for Republic first. If there is demand for a good domestically trade there first. Once you have built your "base of operations" Switch back to monarchy or try even different approaches.


Explanation: Republic offers the fastest upward (city size) and outward (# of cities) growth. You do not have to support diplomats and vans. Settlers until the next city. Domestic trade (of demanded items) while not giving a large upfront boost, will give you the arrows to help celebrate rather than building improvments. Use diplomats for defense, if you even have to. Your SSC will need to have the Colossus along with Cop's and Newton. Throw in Shake for happiness sake, and you will need it in a strong "shield" city for rehoming of tiremes and caravels. Take the time to MM your cities and the slider. When you get to Democracy: EL stay there until you land your ship. EC try building SoL and switch to Fundy. While your science will suffer, who cares. It is all about happiness.

If your cities are celebrating, you will have faster science and more income. If you want an army go to the AI and buy one. Getting it from the AI will keep you from supporting one yourself. If you go this route, build Leo's that way your army will be upgraded automatically. When you do trade foreign take a Diplo. Purchase a warrior (or more) and bring it back. People let the AI do research for them, let them build your army as well instead of their own city improvements.

You need an army to enforce happiness in Monarchy. You do not need an army in Republic, Democracy, or Fundy. You can buy one from the AI in Republic and Democracy. You can support one on your own in Fundy.

While this may not be the "fastest" strategy since like you said, it has never been "tested", it may be worth looking into and "figured" out. IMO one would not have to drastically change their style of play, but adjust it according to the way a Republic form of government works. All of the trade formulas have been worked out and can still be used. Where to place your cities has almost all been worked out. Governments have only been experimented with to see which one fits ones style of play the best. Getting creative with governments has not been a strategy very well defined. EC has avoided Republic because it does not do good for war. EL has avoided Monarchy, because it is burdisome technology wise. While I may not be an expert on either one, I have noticed that the AI who are perfectionist empire builders have few cities and lots of techs. Expansionist have lots of cities and and few techs. After awhile they trade techs and in modern times equal each other in all aspects. Since they are not fighting each other the empire perfectionist starts to grow like mad and the expantionist starts to build their empire like the perfectionist did at the beginning. The new strategy will be how to combine both ways of thinking (EC and EL) and see which government comes out on top.

When I first started playing, I always chose the Babylonians partly because they were Purple and started out right in the crossroads of three Contenents (I loved earth maps). Now that I have learned about all of the strategies that have been developed, I understand why I never liked Republic and Democracy and why I still had a "fair" game. Being your key civ helped a lot. That and changing the rule that Fundy had science blocked at 50%. Now that I have played the GOTM, I have had to adjust to having Fundy back at the 50% limiter and not being able to play purple. Both of these things are making me re-think Republic and Democracy.

 

[Peaster]

I am used to facing strong humans where no player can get HG every game. Of course this is a forum of "vs. ai players", so this is where i will focus my thoughts.

I dunno ... Human-vs-Human might be even more interesting strategically than single player, but AFAIK nobody has written a guide to it, or even a list of general principles (I think there is only a short guide, written by eyes-of-night). I have played a few PBEMs, but don't feel qualified to give advice. Why don't you start one, or maybe just a thread in this forum to see if MP players have ideas to share ?

In my case, i would hold back on wonders until Republic/Trade, getting Marcos first then HG only as fast as necessary while thriving in an ICS Republic without it, actually getting Pyramids ... An interesting comparison is Monarchy+HG vs. Republic without it ... this would generally work out to about 16 Republic cities vs. 10 cities in Monarchy ... My position is thus that you can ICS faster vs. the ai in Republic than in Monarchy, because in Monarchy early HG is mandatory and in Republic HG can wait a bit as you pursue other goals without having your civ fall apart. .

Interesting ! I'd expect that growth would be a bit faster in Monarchy because of the support edge, but maybe the need for early HG is enough to give Repu an edge. This kind of thing is hard to calculate, but fairly easy to test in comparison games. I don't know of any EL player [or EC] who has tried this, but I haven't studied many EL games ... do you know of any like that ?

Yes i have started a few games but unfortunately it has been difficult to find or make the time to finish them... otherwise there would be some very interesting early Republic games for players to see and compare. The only gotms i have finished have been a couple that i played with One City.

Do you have any old saves from the games you quit ? Especially useful would be saves from approx 1000BC to 500BC, preferably in some GOTM that I also played in. If not, I might replay the early years of one of those gotms myself, but that might not be fair ... I might not play early Repu as well as you, or as well as I play early Mona. Would you be willing to replay one of those, thru approx 500BC ?

@timtofly: Not sure I got all your points, but some seemed similar to Wildpony's.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Except when playing OCC I do not like early Republic. At higher levels (I usually play emperor or deity) it is impossible to celebrate without Michelangelo's which is not an early wonder. Without that benefit the extra cost of one shield per unit, lack of martial law, and two foods per settler are not justifiable. The only remaining advantage of Republic is better trade payoffs. But I can mimic the same most of the time by thinking ahead: one turn before delivery I employ enough entertainers to make my city celebrate in Monarchy which then gives me the same arrows as republic. Resetting my citizens will not affect the arrows till the next turn. The loss of production for one turn is small cost to pay for the extra trade bonus.

 

[Peaster]

At higher levels (I usually play emperor or deity) it is impossible to celebrate without Michelangelo's which is not an early wonder.

I agree with most of your points, but maybe not this one. In GOTM 110 [Emperor], I switched from Monarchy to Republic in 625BC when I had about 20 cities. I celebrated my size 3 cities up to about size 6 without Mike's [and without city improvements]. According to my notes, I set luxuries to 80, so you could argue that it was expensive, but IIRC this was only for a few turns. You could also argue that size 6 isn't much, but it was a great help to trade bonuses in that phase of my game.

By coincidence, I discovered monotheism the same turn, but didn't build Mike's until 80AD [probably a mistake to delay so long], which allowed further celebration.

I think Wildpony is saying that unhappiness is less of an problem in Republic, a benefit we may have overlooked. So, you can ICS longer, before needing HG, and can get an edge in growth. It sounds plausible to me, but it goes against conventional wisdom, and it really needs testing in a comparison game. Since you don't ICS, this probably wouldn't work well in your games.

BTW - we seem to need a thread about the basics of happiness and celebration. Magic Gorter and Prof G have one going, mostly about early unhappiness, but it looks a bit technical and not-yet-settled to me. I'd prefer some simple rules-of-thumb [if possible] about which WoWs work best, the effects of govt, playing level, etc.